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John Beagle
Advanced Member
USA
11100 Posts |
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Tom B
Senior Member
4819 Posts |
 Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:02:24 PM
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A couple of points. When I lived in Corpus Christi there were always tar balls on the beach I spoke to several old fishermen who said they were there long before drilling rigs went offshore. In that part of the Gulf, the oil is shallow, and like several places on land, it seeps up and nature deals with it. While the images of Prince William Sound and the Exon Valdez will forever be in our minds, oil in warm water is VASTLY different than in cold water. Bacterial consumption of it exists and is in fact a normal process in the parts of the gulf with natural seepage.
Second, why isn't Obama's refusal to accept other nation's offers of support to prevent the oil from ever reaching shore getting more play. It is as if some wanted it to reach shore, to serve a political agenda. |
Tom Birdwell
tombirdwell@aol.com
(513) 539-7411
Feel free to call or email |
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blueblood
Senior Member
USA
3820 Posts |
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Posted - 07/27/2010 : 12:05:15 PM
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That's because Barrack put out a Fatwa banning all............ 
Really, haven't we seen every oil soaked bird and barrier island with 10W-30 surrounding it. This has been a PR photo op for the liberals to regain momentum and to promote their perceived pathway to energy righteousness. |
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way |
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Houndog
Senior Member
USA
2679 Posts |
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Posted - 07/27/2010 : 2:26:43 PM
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If 200 million gallons of crude in the gulf of Mexico is a liberal photo op then so too could the pictures from Haverhill be viewed as such? But now that I step back and think about it you are correct. The only time politicans from either side show up anywhere is for personal face gain.
I guess the difference between the two is the fact that not one state or federal official cared enough to lend support to our cities battle. There was no political gain for either the conseritives or liberals for the coke plant fight. Only political suicide.
One would imagine the petroleum dispersing chemicals that BP has been pumping into the gulf since day one will probably result in just as much damage to the gulf's ecosystem as the oil itself. |
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OldSarg
Junior Member
USA
148 Posts |
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Posted - 07/27/2010 : 3:33:01 PM
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I lived my youth in Biloxi, worked off shore on the rigs and tar balls and spills were a part of everyday life. There is an estimated 650 Quadrillion gallons of water in the Gulf of Mexico. 200 million gallons doesn't amount to a one tenth of a drop in a gallon of water.
I hated to see even this little spill but the media is making way more out about this spill than needed. |
"My attitude is that if you push me towards something that you think is a weakness, then I will turn that perceived weakness into a strength." - Michael Jordan |
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blueblood
Senior Member
USA
3820 Posts |
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Posted - 07/27/2010 : 5:03:40 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by OldSarg[/i]
[br]I lived my youth in Biloxi, worked off shore on the rigs and tar balls and spills were a part of everyday life. There is an estimated 650 Quadrillion gallons of water in the Gulf of Mexico. 200 million gallons doesn't amount to a one tenth of a drop in a gallon of water.
I hated to see even this little spill but the media is making way more out about this spill than needed.
Exactly.............This administration wants this to continue to further their perverted agenda. They didn't count on, however, it blowing up in their faces. They have accomplished part of their goal in chasing all the deep water rigs to foreign counties, killing tens of thousands of jobs and making us more dependant on foreign oil. |
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way |
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 07/27/2010 : 8:21:02 PM
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I bet it all just disappeared.
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"I brought it back, not cm"
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Matt_Steele
Average Member
1193 Posts |
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Posted - 07/27/2010 : 10:39:45 PM
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Yes, and I bet Katrina was a Bush ploy too and then it blew up in their face as well.
No offense, but this is kind of a ridiculous line of thinking. Almost like the whole "Bush caused 9/11 to happen" type thinking. |
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Tom B
Senior Member
4819 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 12:27:46 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Matt_Steele[/i]
[br]Yes, and I bet Katrina was a Bush ploy too and then it blew up in their face as well.
Matt, perhaps you could explain to me how anything about Katrina would enhance the power and position of key Bush supporters, like this event will absolutely increase the power of the anti-American drill movement.
quote:
No offense, but this is kind of a ridiculous line of thinking. Almost like the whole "Bush caused 9/11 to happen" type thinking.
And no offense in return, but that 9/11 group makes about as much sense as the animal right's activist, who on TV stated that it was stupid and cruel for farmers to raise and slaughter animals, when they could more easily go to the store and purchase it.
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Tom Birdwell
tombirdwell@aol.com
(513) 539-7411
Feel free to call or email |
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 07:10:45 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tom B[/i]
like this event will absolutely increase the power of the anti-American drill movement.
[quote]
Judging from this event, the American Drilling movement hasn't been very responsible with the way they conduct business. Cost cutting and profitting have taken priority over proper safety and fail safe measures.
If this is what off shore drilling is then I don't want it. meanwhile BP is heading for the hills cause "there is no oil to be found", gulf coast business claim they havent gotten money from BP for at least 2 months and we have politicians crying about a corporate shakedown. What a joke of a mess.
What a joke, we should have been developing alternative fuel measures YEARS ago but we have leaders in bed with Oil Kings. We will all pay the price for this eventually. |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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mcelwajy
Junior Member
USA
58 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 3:35:08 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by blueblood[/i]
[br]That's because Barrack put out a Fatwa banning all............
Really, haven't we seen every oil soaked bird and barrier island with 10W-30 surrounding it. This has been a PR photo op for the liberals to regain momentum and to promote their perceived pathway to energy righteousness.
The president would/cannot issue a Fatwa as this must be done by a Muslim Imam.
And the liberal energy righteousness is only as liberal as the conservative corporations that are heading the energy industry.
BTW, 10w-30 and crude are as different as reality and cable news networks (all of them). |
Big J |
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blueblood
Senior Member
USA
3820 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 3:41:14 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by mcelwajy[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by blueblood[/i]
[br]That's because Barrack put out a Fatwa banning all............
Really, haven't we seen every oil soaked bird and barrier island with 10W-30 surrounding it. This has been a PR photo op for the liberals to regain momentum and to promote their perceived pathway to energy righteousness.
The president would/cannot issue a Fatwa as this must be done by a Muslim Imam.
And the liberal energy righteousness is only as liberal as the conservative corporations that are heading the energy industry.
BTW, 10w-30 and crude are as different as reality and cable news networks (all of them).
Really, do you think Barry knows this? I think 32 billion will begin to teach the evil capitalists a lesson! |
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way |
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Matt_Steele
Average Member
1193 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:25:39 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by OldSarg[/i]
[br]I lived my youth in Biloxi, worked off shore on the rigs and tar balls and spills were a part of everyday life. There is an estimated 650 Quadrillion gallons of water in the Gulf of Mexico. 200 million gallons doesn't amount to a one tenth of a drop in a gallon of water.
I hated to see even this little spill but the media is making way more out about this spill than needed.
Yet this spill is actually affecting the livelihoods of thousands of La residents, esp those that rely on the fishing industry for their way of life. I don't think I'm prepared to tell them that the media is making way more about this spill than needed. |
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Matt_Steele
Average Member
1193 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:28:15 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tom B[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Matt_Steele[/i]
[br]Yes, and I bet Katrina was a Bush ploy too and then it blew up in their face as well.
Matt, perhaps you could explain to me how anything about Katrina would enhance the power and position of key Bush supporters, like this event will absolutely increase the power of the anti-American drill movement.
quote:
No offense, but this is kind of a ridiculous line of thinking. Almost like the whole "Bush caused 9/11 to happen" type thinking.
And no offense in return, but that 9/11 group makes about as much sense as the animal right's activist, who on TV stated that it was stupid and cruel for farmers to raise and slaughter animals, when they could more easily go to the store and purchase it.
1) that was a joke, perhaps a flawed analogy, I guess I could have gone with Bush causing 9/11 since it would allow him to attack Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11
2) I agree, all conspiracy theories like the 9/11 group but also including this one about Obama wanting the oil to reach shore for political advantage are ridiculous and bunk |
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blueblood
Senior Member
USA
3820 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:29:49 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Matt_Steele[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by OldSarg[/i]
[br]I lived my youth in Biloxi, worked off shore on the rigs and tar balls and spills were a part of everyday life. There is an estimated 650 Quadrillion gallons of water in the Gulf of Mexico. 200 million gallons doesn't amount to a one tenth of a drop in a gallon of water.
I hated to see even this little spill but the media is making way more out about this spill than needed.
Yet this spill is actually affecting the livelihoods of thousands of La residents, esp those that rely on the fishing industry for their way of life. I don't think I'm prepared to tell them that the media is making way more about this spill than needed.
And why are they not fishing? Because Barry says you can't in large areas that directly effect their livelihood, though I don't think it has been shown to be unhealthy! |
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way |
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Matt_Steele
Average Member
1193 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:40:51 PM
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| I don't think that fish from the gulf right now is a hot item on the market. There's an oil spill in the Gulf, it's obvious that animals have been affected, beaches oily and the people and governor of Louisiana have cried help. Seafood from the gulf isn't necessarily something that people want to buy right now. |
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OldSarg
Junior Member
USA
148 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 6:58:45 PM
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| I don't think the fish drink the oil. They are fine to eat. |
"My attitude is that if you push me towards something that you think is a weakness, then I will turn that perceived weakness into a strength." - Michael Jordan |
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 07/28/2010 : 8:34:17 PM
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yeah fine to eat if you don't care about what you eat.
do you seriously think that much oil could get dumped into the gulf and it won't effect the fish population in anyway? You aren't worried about what it may mean to eat that fish? What about all the chemical they are dumping in to disperse the oil, is that safe for the fishes?
Thanks but no thanks. I can guarantee you that high quality restaurants won't be touching anything from the gulf for a long time.
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"I brought it back, not cm"
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cmcarney
Junior Member
172 Posts |
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buckeyenut
Senior Member
USA
3736 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 12:27:48 PM
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Sure the oil is missing. It's on the birds! 
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Tom B
Senior Member
4819 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 1:24:00 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
[br]
If this is what off shore drilling is then I don't want it.
And yet you keep driving anyway, knowing this is a significant part of the world's oil supply comes from. YOUR demand for oil is what drives companies to go drill offshore, just as surely as American demand for illegal drugs causes people around the world to make them.
quote:
What a joke, we should have been developing alternative fuel measures YEARS ago
So what stopped you from doing so? If it were that simple an issue, it would have been done. And by the way, we have politicians falling all over themselves for alternative fuel every four years in all the remote hamlets of Iowa. It is called ethanol, and requires about 1.15 BTU units of oil input to get one BTU equivalent unit output of ethanol. Now THERE is a great alternative energy program. Actually I should not complain, as a net loss of 15% it is more efficient than most government sponsored enterprises. The same is true for photovoltaic technology. And recall that Teddy Kennedy would not let them put windmills off HIS shore.
Obama is eager to go with carbon caps, but to date there has not been a single viable alternative solution of how to power Ohio and the rest of the Midwest without coal powered electricity, with the exception of nuclear, and he killed its long term storage.
quote:
but we have leaders in bed with Oil Kings. We will all pay the price for this eventually.
Yet you choose to live in suburbia, where you must consume oil in significant quantities just to get the basics of life, and you blame our oil problems on our leaders? I will buy you a mirror if you and others want to see the true cause of our energy problems. |
Tom Birdwell
tombirdwell@aol.com
(513) 539-7411
Feel free to call or email |
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blueblood
Senior Member
USA
3820 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 1:27:55 PM
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If you have not been aware of the problems with the foreign seafood which makes up the majority of what is domestically consumed, you would welcome the Gulf seafood with open arms!
I heard 2800 birds total have been oil coated. That's not quite as many chickens that were consumed in Monroe last night! |
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way |
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 1:50:59 PM
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Oh please Tom.
I live in the real world. I have to make a living, to do that I drive a car. Come up with an economical alternative to fuel that car and I will gladly embrace it as long as I can make my living still. I'm not smart enough to develop alternative fuel sources, that's not on me. If you are then shame on you for not making the earth a better place.
How did you get too and from work every day? Did you float?
When you visited the south pole did you float there as well? A broom? Can you teleport?
If coming up with an atlernitive energy source had been a priority 25 years ago we would have something today, but it wasn't and we don't. No matter how you slice it out leaders were in bed with Oil Kings and the car manufactures fought it tooth and nail.
pin it on me all you want, but I'm a very small piece of this puzzle. heck your trip to the south pole probably has a bigger carbon footprint than all of mine combined |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 1:51:52 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by buckeyenut[/i]
[br]Sure the oil is missing. It's on the birds!
Well Gee, I sure want to eat fish coming out of that water, it must be safe if they are saying so.
LOL |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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Houndog
Senior Member
USA
2679 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 2:58:42 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
[br]Oh please Tom.
I live in the real world. I have to make a living, to do that I drive a car. Come up with an economical alternative to fuel that car and I will gladly embrace it as long as I can make my living still. I'm not smart enough to develop alternative fuel sources, that's not on me. If you are then shame on you for not making the earth a better place.
How did you get too and from work every day? Did you float?
When you visited the south pole did you float there as well? A broom? Can you teleport?
If coming up with an atlernitive energy source had been a priority 25 years ago we would have something today, but it wasn't and we don't. No matter how you slice it out leaders were in bed with Oil Kings and the car manufactures fought it tooth and nail.
pin it on me all you want, but I'm a very small piece of this puzzle. heck your trip to the south pole probably has a bigger carbon footprint than all of mine combined
If my internal combustion engine ran on sarcasm, this post could take me from here to Tuscon to Tucumcari, Tehachapi to Tonopah...anyone? |
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Doc
Advanced Member
USA
8416 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 3:23:25 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Houndog[/i]
If my internal combustion engine ran on sarcasm, this post could take me from here to Tuscon to Tucumcari, Tehachapi to Tonopah...anyone?
Thank you, Linda! 
You could also visit: Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota, Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota, Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Oklahoma, Tampa, Panama, Mattawa, La Paloma, Bangor, Baltimore, Salvador, Amarillo, Tocapillo, Baranquilla, and Perdilla. Boston, Charleston, Dayton, Louisiana, Washington, Houston, Kingston, Texarkana, Monterey, Faraday, Santa Fe, Tallapoosa, Glen Rock, Black Rock, Little Rock, Oskaloosa, Tennessee, Hennessey, Chicopee, Spirit Lake, Grand Lake, Devils Lake, Crater Lake, Louisville, Nashville, Knoxville, Ombabika, Schefferville, Jacksonville, Waterville, Costa Rica, Pittsfield, Springfield, Bakersfield, Shreveport, Hackensack, Cadillac, Fond du Lac, Davenport, Idaho, Jellico, Argentina, Diamantina, Pasadena, Catalina, Pittsburgh, Parkersburg, Gravelbourg, Colorado, Ellensburg, Rexburg, Vicksburg, Eldorado, Larimore, Admore, Haverstraw, Chatanika, Chaska, Nebraska, Alaska, Opelika, Baraboo, Waterloo, Kalamazoo, Kansas City, Sioux City, Cedar City, and finally….Dodge City.
You could be everywhere, man. You could be everywhere. |
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blueblood
Senior Member
USA
3820 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 3:40:19 PM
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•"It faded on the crowing of the cock.
Some say that ever 'gainst that season comes
Wherein our Saviour's birth is celebrated,
The bird of dawning singeth all night long:
And then, they say, no spirit dare stir abroad;
The nights are wholesome; then no planets strike,
No fairy takes, nor witch hath power to charm,
So hallow'd and so gracious is the time."
•"O, that this too too solid flesh would melt,
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd
His canon 'gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!
How weary, stale, flat, and unprofitable
Seem to me all the uses of this world |
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way |
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 07/30/2010 : 4:04:46 PM
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| I'm a very sarcastic guy...can't help it, it's how I'm wired. |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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Tom B
Senior Member
4819 Posts |
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Posted - 08/02/2010 : 12:06:00 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
[br]Oh please Tom. I live in the real world. I have to make a living, to do that I drive a car. Come up with an economical alternative to fuel that car and I will gladly embrace it as long as I can make my living still.
You claim to live in the "real" world, yet you insist alternatives to oil are there, if we had only looked for them. Japan, and Europe have no domestic oil. And they have taxed the hell out of it, making it incredibly expensive. But even in these relatively wealthy nations, nobody has come up with an alternative to oil. Yet you and liberals like Al Gore insist there must be one. What if there is not? That I fear is the tragedy we face.
quote:
I'm not smart enough to develop alternative fuel sources, that's not on me. If you are then shame on you for not making the earth a better place.
I place it on you simply because you and so many other liberals keep insisting that good alternatives would exist if only we tried harder. I am a pretty good engineer, or at least once was. I don't think a good alternative exists or will soon exist if only we tried harder. My heartburn here is only that you and just about every other liberal I know really believes that if we had just made an effort, that a good alternative to oil would be here. We live in a world of entrepreneurship, with oil very expensive in much of the world, yet to date, nobody has come up with a good alternative to oil. Why?
In the US, Obama seems determined to end our reliance on coal for electrical power generation. However, alternatives to generate electrical power seem limited to wind, which is strongly tied to geography, nuclear, a field where we haven't started a new nuclear power plant since the late 60's, and photovoltaic, which simply can't compete with oil at today's prices.
quote:
How did you get too and from work every day? Did you float?
I drove, but I am not the one insisting that alternatives to oil exist.
quote:
When you visited the south pole did you float there as well? A broom? Can you teleport?If coming up with an atlernitive energy source had been a priority 25 years ago we would have something today, but it wasn't and we don't.
I am sorry if this sounds like an insult, for I don't mean it to. But in this case, I don't believe you have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Just wanting a good alternative does not make it possible, or even likely to occur.
quote:
No matter how you slice it out leaders were in bed with Oil Kings and the car manufactures fought it tooth and nail.
[quote]
Show me one bit of evidence that car manufacturers fought to keep us dependent on oil? They would make cars either way, so what drives your view here? Again, the high cost of oil products in Europe must have had no influence on their actions to develop oil alternatives as well. Or were all their leaders in bed with the oil kings as well?
[quote]
Pin it on me all you want, but I'm a very small piece of this puzzle. heck your trip to the south pole probably has a bigger carbon footprint than all of mine combined
I have never been to the south pole, although it, and jumping from El Cap in Yosemite, and Angel Falls in Venezuela are all on my bucket list. The only reason I pin anything on you is your extreme belief that a good alternative would exist if we just wanted it badly enough. I think you suffer from a delusion if you believe that. |
Tom Birdwell
tombirdwell@aol.com
(513) 539-7411
Feel free to call or email |
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v.o.r
Junior Member
361 Posts |
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Posted - 08/03/2010 : 1:10:59 PM
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| The argument that top scientists cannot come up with an alternative fuel source other than petroleum as the main reason why we do not have an alternative source is just insane. Let’s consider who the top scientists and engineers who could develop an alternate fuel source most likely works for...? Most likely the oil industry. As far as the wealthy 1% (includes politicians since they typically are in that category) who could spend money developing other energy sources... why would they. They are already invested in big oil. Which keeps increasing in value as it becomes less abundant. They are going to ride this baby out until it is so scarce, only they can afford it. Then, miraculously we will see an alternative source - which will be provided by BP, Exxon, et al. By the time that day comes we will all be eating petroleum fish and swimming in vegetable oil when we take our families to the beach. Its not lack of ingenuity… but rather greed that keeps us from finding a better alternative. But hey… drill baby drill! |
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 08/03/2010 : 2:57:28 PM
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we put a man on the moon but we can't develop an alternative fuel source. i think you give too little credit to what is possible if we are determined and actually care about a problem instead of continually sweeping it under the rug.
I would maintain that those in control of Oil, and those in bed with them, have long since been doing everything in their power to make sure that doesn't happen Tom.
I never said simply wanting something was the way to get it, but making it a priority is the first step. I'm not sure getting off of oil has ever been a priority for anyone in this country, and I'm not talking about you or me, I mean Ford, I mean our leaders who are in bed with Oil giants from the mid east. I mean all the people who spend Billions every year to make sure we stay on oil and don't come up with something to make their black gold worthless. You and I have NO CHOICE in this matter if we wish to live normal lives.
If it's not the south pole then it was the north pole you went to correct? Either that or you are a liar and you don't strike me as a liar Tom. Either way that is some carbon footprint. I hope you at least planted a few trees. |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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Tom B
Senior Member
4819 Posts |
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Posted - 08/04/2010 : 02:10:16 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by v.o.r[/i]
[br]The argument that top scientists cannot come up with an alternative fuel source other than petroleum as the main reason why we do not have an alternative source is just insane.
Other than baseless speculation, what is your belief based on? I spent my entire career working for, with, and finally leading some of the world's top scientists and engineers. All of the good ones I know are as worried as everyone else about what happens when the oil runs out, and that day is coming a lot sooner than we realize.
Consider this. WWII's cause was largely oil. Nations that didn't have it, Japan and Germany, took actions that killed over 40 million people to get it, yet you believe that they and other wealthy nations today have no interest in finding an oil alternative? Since then, three wars have taken place in the middle east, all driven by oil.
quote:
Let’s consider who the top scientists and engineers who could develop an alternate fuel source most likely works for...? Most likely the oil industry.
Really? Every plastics company in the world depends on affordable oil as their feedstock, and all have petrochemical staffs quite capable of doing research in this field. Kodak for example came close to bankruptcy in the early 80's because of their efforts. GE, one of the world's leading plastic manufacturers, has no significant ties to oil companies. In fact, every plastic manufacturer in the world depends upon an affordable supply of petrochemical feedstock. All have engineers and scientists like you speak of. Collectively they have have spent incredible amounts of money seeking oil alternatives, without success.
quote:
As far as the wealthy 1% (includes politicians since they typically are in that category) who could spend money developing other energy sources... why would they. They are already invested in big oil. Which keeps increasing in value as it becomes less abundant.
I covered plastics already. Now, consider the world's automobile industry. Their future depends upon affordable oil, or an alternative to it. If oil prices continue to rise, they will suffer greatly. If any one of them develops an oil alternative and patents it, they will become rich beyond imagination. So why haven't they?
Just these two examples, the automotive and plastics industries, clearly point out the flaw in your "logic". Both depend upon affordable oil, or an alternative. Both have research and development resources nearly beyond our imagination. Both have sought alternatives, and neither have succeeded. Yet you are sure that nobody has tried. Your blind ignorance to the reality of the world economy and marketplace is staggering. |
Tom Birdwell
tombirdwell@aol.com
(513) 539-7411
Feel free to call or email |
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Tom B
Senior Member
4819 Posts |
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Posted - 08/04/2010 : 03:57:26 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
[br] I never said simply wanting something was the way to get it, but making it a priority is the first step. I'm not sure getting off of oil has ever been a priority for anyone in this country,
THIS COUNTRY???? If you mean that our national priorities are screwed up, I agree. But extending your argument worldwide requires that one believe that we are the only nation on earth that invents things. Japan, Korea, China, Germany, the list goes on and on. None of them have oil resources. Two started a world war to get oil. Surely you don't believe that the leaders of all those nations, along with the leaders of every automotive company in the world, are all in bed with big oil?
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and I'm not talking about you or me, I mean Ford
Yes, you mean Ford, along with GM and Chrysler, But for your argument to have any validity, you must add Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mercedes, Fiat, Audi... literally every automotive manufacturer in the entire world.
What do they have in common CM? They are all in the car MANUFACTURING business, not oil. They will continue to exist ONLY if a viable alternative to oil is found. Electric, hydrogen, kryptonite, they continue to exist only if a cheap and abundant form of energy is found. What part of that can't you see?
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I mean all the people who spend Billions every year to make sure we stay on oil and don't come up with something to make their black gold worthless.
Who spends billions to keep us on oil CM? In a global economy, with the entire world's automotive and plastic industries dependent on cheap energy, explain to us how a handful of oil companies are stopping energy development world wide? For unless you can name names and explain how this is happening, you are simply repeating the political mantra you have been fed, blowing the hot air of the left.
So can you do more than blow hot air, and explain to us how this global suppression of energy development thingy works?
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Tom Birdwell
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cmsquare
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Posted - 08/04/2010 : 04:37:09 AM
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well according to you Tom we are too stupid to come up with an alternative so why bother trying. Yes Tom they develop and manufacture cars. Do you think they have nothing to do with the design process of the engines? Do you think it's been a priority to come up with something new for the last 20 years? If not them then who?
Yes Tom, THIS COUNTRY because we use FAR more oil than anyone else in the world, so it is on US a little bit more.
Sure add Toyota and every car other car company into the mix. It's the foreign car companies that lead the market in terms of hybrid technology, the American car companies kicked and screamed against that as well.
Bush spent the minutes after 9/11 flying Saudi Royalty out of the country including relatives of Bin Laden but meanwhile our leaders aren't in bed with foreign oil. And don't turn it into a Bush thing, he isn't the first president with big oil connections and won't be the last. heck w ran an oil company that daddy tried to give him into the ground if I remember correctly
Fact of the matter is it's not a priority for those companies because it would cut into their profits and they can barely exist now without getting government money to prop them up? Why? because they have had crooked priorities for as far back and you can remember and only cared about profiting instead of researching for the last 20 years Ford cranked out explorers that get 15 MPG. And when they decided the explorer wasn't big enough, and got too many MPG, well they came up with the expedition and excursion. Those were the great engineering feats of Ford in the 80's and 90's. Yay for taking steps in the wrong direction. Then we rolled out tax credits to anyone who would buy as gas guzzling monster and had a home business. Another brilliant move.
What does it matter though, were just stupid and there is very clearly not one single other fuel source in this universe other than oil. It's the only possible fuel source in this entire galaxy and we know this how? Well because Tom Birdwell told me on the voice that's how, he has traveled the entire galaxy far and wide and knows beyond a shadow of a doubt everything that could potentially exist in this universe.
You may have been a good engineer, but I'm not just gonna take your word on that. I think we have bright enough people to come up with something if it were a priority, like I said we put a man on the moon and that is much harder.
Geez if the engineers I knew thought like you they wouldn't come up with very much. I never said it would easy, or obvious, but it sure as heck hasn't been at the top of our list for the last 20 years, I'm not sure how you can pretend it has been. |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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John Beagle
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Posted - 08/04/2010 : 09:02:00 AM
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| BP says it has achieved 'static kill' on Gulf of Mexico well |
MainStreetMonroe.com is news of, for and by the people of Monroe, Ohio. |
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v.o.r
Junior Member
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Posted - 08/04/2010 : 12:26:04 PM
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It's amazing when you give a guy with a bit of knowledge, a forum and the Internet... he is a subject matter expert on everything. Tom you claim that all of these industries that use oil would love to have an alternative... I again disagree. Lets take the automotive industry for example. They would then have to re-engineer all of the engines, transmissions, brake systems, etc. They all use an oil derivative. So right now... while we can still find oil and keep it cheap for the sheep to purchase and drive - we will have very little innovation in developing new fuel sources.
And if you do not think that the automotive industry is getting some sort of monetary incentive from the oil producers in this world to keep their vehicles running on the black gold... you have to be insane or just plain obtuse. We're talking trillions of dollars here. When it becomes more scarce, it will be worth even more. So until the reserves run so low and it is too expensive for the average Joe... then BP will give us another alternative. I'm sure it will happen in my lifetime... and most likely yours too.
I may not be a world leading engineer, astrophysicist, astronaut, and part time Britannica editor like yourself... but years working in Emergency Medicine has made me a human nature expert. In my most humble of opinions we are going to beat this horse until it is near dead before finding a new one. By nature we only think of the present, almost never considering the future. We do this in almost every aspect of life. Including the environment as well as sources of energy. |
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dad0f3
Junior Member
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Posted - 08/04/2010 : 12:41:00 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
Bush spent the minutes after 9/11 flying Saudi Royalty out of the country including relatives of Bin Laden but meanwhile our leaders aren't in bed with foreign oil.
Oh, you're one of those guys huh, CM? I can't say I'm surprised. Can you do just a *little* research on these 911 myths before posting them as fact?
http://911myths.com/html/family_flights.html
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Tom B
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Posted - 08/04/2010 : 4:40:12 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
[br]well according to you Tom we are too stupid to come up with an alternative so why bother trying. Yes Tom they develop and manufacture cars. Do you think they have nothing to do with the design process of the engines? Do you think it's been a priority to come up with something new for the last 20 years? If not them then who?
You and VOR call that logic? Then let's extend it to yours and VOR's profession, since you both work in medicine. Human beings are frail, get old, and have diseases. Using your logic, all the doctors, drug companies, medical equipment salesmen, and EMT's are just in the way of medical progress, because you all have a vested interest in keeping people sick, selling medicine and equipment, and hauling people around in ambulances.
Sound stupid? It should. It is is exactly as stupid as the argument you are making about automotive companies wanting to stay with oil technology. Exactly which part of their going out of business, when oil becomes unaffordable for the masses in another 10 years or so, do you not understand?
And since you seem unable to do a web search and find it on your own, it isn't the automotive companies you should be watching, but instead the BATTERY, hydrogen, and other alternative ones. The company that creates a unit that fills or charges quickly, goes more than 100 miles with reasonable power, and patents it, will become rich beyond belief. Remember the X-Prize that got all the groups pushing for a commercial space vehicle, the one that that Burt Rutan won? There is one for automotive battery technologies as well, that drew hundreds of competitors.
Maybe you haven't paid any attention, but in the US, NASA and NIST have spent well over a billion dollars to solve this problem, and have not gotten there. Just think what nations with no oil at all want to happen. Yet you continue to insist the solution is merely hidden by the oil barrens?
God spent 3 billion years converting solar energy into an easily portable form called oil, which we have consumed in 100 years. You think it will be possible to just replace that if we want it badly enough? Stick to what you know something about, which I assume from your professions is the field of medicine.
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Tom Birdwell
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Tom B
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Posted - 08/05/2010 : 5:27:56 PM
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http://www.marketwatch.com/story/portland-general-electric-opens-north-americas-first-public-use-quick-charge-station-for-electric-vehicles-in-collaboration-with-nec-2010-08-05?reflink=MW_news_stmp
Portland General Electric Opens North America's First Public-Use Quick-Charge Station for Electric Vehicles in Collaboration with NEC
Electric Vehicles Can Charge up in 20 to 30 Minutes
PORTLAND, Ore., Aug 05, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Portland General Electric /quotes/comstock/13*!por (POR 19.85, +0.33, +1.69%) , Oregon's largest utility, and NEC Corporation (NEC) (TOKYO:6701), a leading network, communications and information technology company, announced today they have opened North America's first public-use, quick-charge station for electric vehicles.
The station was awarded public-use certification by the City of Portland following the successful installation and testing of the station manufactured by Takasago Ltd., a subsidiary of NEC, at the PGE headquarters in the Two World Trade Center parking garage, 121 SW Salmon St, Portland, Ore. The Takasago Rapid Charging Station is specialized for recharging electric vehicles with lithium-ion batteries and requires only 20 to 30 minutes to recharge a battery to 80 percent of full strength.
PGE and NEC officially opened the quick-charge station today with Governor Ted Kulongoski, who charged up an all-electric Nissan LEAF, during a two-day LEAF test drive event at PGE. Portland and the state of Oregon have been designated as top-tier launch markets for the Nissan LEAF when it goes on sale in the United States in December.
"Quick-charging stations are an exciting advancement in our effort to bring electric vehicles to Oregon," said Gov. Kulongoski. "By making charging convenient and available for public use, we are telling car manufacturers that Oregon is ready for the next generation of electric vehicles -- and we want our state to be a leader in introducing these cars to the rest of the country."
"Partnering with NEC to bring the nation's first publicly available, quick-charge station to Oregon further solidifies PGE's commitment to developing the infrastructure needed to support electric vehicles now coming to the U.S. market," said Jim Piro, president and CEO, PGE.
"With the addition of the Takasago Rapid Charging Station to the growing network of EV charging stations in Oregon, we are able to further our research on how this new technology will interact with our electrical system and support our EV-driving customers," Piro added.
"This project reflects NEC's ongoing commitment to the development of new infrastructure that utilizes renewable resources. As a supplier of electric vehicle batteries, our introduction of the rapid electric vehicle charging station is a natural stage in the evolution of NEC's environmentally friendly solutions," said Hideki Niwaya, general manager, Public Utility Solutions Division, NEC. "Looking forward, NEC aims to continue developing mission critical solutions, including information and communications technologies (ICT) services and smart grids that represent the latest in technological innovation."
The Takasago Rapid Charging Station complies with the "CHAdeMO," a global EV charging standard developed in Japan. The station provides power output of 50kw (50-500V, 0-125A) and supports power input of AC200V±30V.
PGE's alliance partner, Portland State University, and the Oregon Transportation Research and Education Consortium will document the acquisition, installation, certification, and testing procedures for this quick charger and release its findings in September.
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Tom Birdwell
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bobpreston
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Posted - 08/06/2010 : 8:02:33 PM
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Typical liberals, some one else should invest their money on what liberals THINK can be. Get all your rich liberal wackos together and spend your time and money on alternatives. Stop blaming others for which you will not do.
Wind energy is a failure, it was a 100 years ago and it is today. But we spent hundreds of billions on a 100 year old technology.
Regressives are truly lost in a fantasy utopia. I would suggest you liberals all hold your breath as to not expel global killing co2 into the air. |
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
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Posted - 08/06/2010 : 11:37:49 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tom B[/i]
You and VOR call that logic? Then let's extend it to yours and VOR's profession, since you both work in medicine. Human beings are frail, get old, and have diseases. Using your logic, all the doctors, drug companies, medical equipment salesmen, and EMT's are just in the way of medical progress, because you all have a vested interest in keeping people sick, selling medicine and equipment, and hauling people around in ambulances.
Sound stupid? It should. It is is exactly as stupid as the argument you are making about automotive companies wanting to stay with oil technology.
It may sound silly to you, but it happens in medicine as well Tom. Right now I sell aproduct that can help people with arthritis and other injuries. This product is inherently safe, it cannot hurt the recipient since it is derived only of their cells.
Now if a your knee gets fixed from just the injection that only pays a few hundred dollars, Surgeon Smith isn't going to get to do the knee replacement surgery he's been lining you up for that pays him THOUSANDS. Not to mention all the physical therapy he will get to bill out once you've been cut. That knee replacement ends up being a pretty nice pay day. Surgeons like to perform surgery, it's how they make their living. Which is why I see many getting in the way of some of these treatments. It happens more often than you may think. Docs ask me all the time why they would do x when y pays more. Hate to break it to you.
I'm not saying this is how all Doctors work, but I would be lying if I said it doens't happen.
It's my product that is actually taking problems that typically cost insurance thousands upon thousands of dollars and can save them big money by avoiding unnecessary surgical procedures. I'm part of the solution, not the problem. |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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Tom B
Senior Member
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Posted - 08/08/2010 : 01:20:34 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
[br] Right now I sell aproduct that can help people with arthritis and other injuries. This product is inherently safe, it cannot hurt the recipient since it is derived only of their cells. Now if a your knee gets fixed from just the injection that only pays a few hundred dollars, Surgeon Smith isn't going to get to do the knee replacement surgery he's been lining you up for that pays him THOUSANDS. Not to mention all the physical therapy he will get to bill out once you've been cut. That knee replacement ends up being a pretty nice pay day. Surgeons like to perform surgery, it's how they make their living. Which is why I see many getting in the way of some of these treatments. It happens more often than you may think. Docs ask me all the time why they would do x when y pays more. Hate to break it to you. It's my product that is actually taking problems that typically cost insurance thousands upon thousands of dollars and can save them big money by avoiding unnecessary surgical procedures. I'm part of the solution, not the problem.
I think what you described is a great example, so let's look at it more closely, and the lessons to take from it. Are you selling this product within the established medical community? So that a customer can get a lower cost solution than from surgery, just not what the the power players of medicine, surgeons, would like. Was it developed by medical professionals? What industry manufactures it, distributes it, and provides it to customers? Medical again, right? Was it something that required significant effort for FDA approval, or just off label use of another product, previously approved. Finally CM, I trust you really are a medical professional, so this product is provided to patients by doctors, and not by a transient vendor not at a booth at Trader's World, right?
If the answers to the questions above are yes, as I am sure they are, CM has demonstrated that important growth and improvements thrive even in an industry like medicine, where a few large drug companies bully, threaten, sue and bribe everyone to hold their advantage, surgeons rule, and for millions of real reasons you just about have to work to work in medicine to do medical development. Plus, it can take 30 years to get FDA approval. However, despite all these obstacles, Advancements simply can't be stopped by people or organizational obstacles, only by limitations of nature, physics, etc. In medicine, energy, or automotive.
Furthermore CM, your your example documents that enough people have absolutely no problem upsetting the apple cart and it or several others prove that that owly regular doctors have no problem in stealing traditional customers from from surgeons. I believe you. Hell, I applaud you for bringing it here. The only problem for you is that it destroys any legitimate argument you or VOR can make that oil and automotive companies can block alternative energy development. Automotive and energy development are open sieves compered to the medical industry.
VOR stated that trillions of dollars are at stake, and the crisis will occur in his lifetime. You both grossly understate the problem. The crisis would be here already, had the banking disaster not killed the economy's growth. I expect the house of cards to start falling within ten years.
WWII and three wars in the gulf since were largely fought over oil, who had it, and who wanted to take it. 50 million people died, yet nothing changed in terms of who had it. Do you think BP or any other oil company has the means to convince Germany, Japan, or any other nation without oil to not develop alternatives. If so, you have taken complete leave of your senses.
Finally, unlike medicine, in energy, ANY individual or industry can enter this fray. Battery companies, utilities, electronics companies, universities, environmental engineers concerned of CO2 and global warming. There are no limits to those who can work in the field, no regulatory obstacles in their path, and lots of development money available. Yet it hasn't happened. Why? Ocams razor suggests it hasn't happened because it is far more difficult than you imagine. |
Tom Birdwell
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cmsquare
Senior Member
USA
3160 Posts |
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Posted - 08/08/2010 : 10:39:51 AM
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You have no idea how much those bullies have held other products back Tom; protecting their very expensive replacement hips and knees. I'm not getting into it anymore than I already have, it's not a part of my life I want on the voice.
You make some good points, but things are not 100% the way you describe either. You are quite misinformed about the way competition works in the medical industry, even more so if you want to get into the game of insurance which isn't even something I deal with very much.
I just really find it hard to believe that I see some of the things I do in medicine on a day in and day out basis yet we can't come up with an alternative fuel source. That doens't quite add up to me. If it does for you then so be it. I guess I just am naive to think we are so bright.
meanwhile some Doc down the road is aspirating bone marrow and spinning out stem cells to help his patients avoid having a leg amputated. I've seen such crazy stuff, that a fuel alternative to oil really doesn't seem that crazy to me. |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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Tom B
Senior Member
4819 Posts |
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Posted - 08/10/2010 : 07:12:48 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i]
[br]You have no idea how much those bullies have held other products back Tom; protecting their very expensive replacement hips and knees.
And your point is what? Are you so blinded by idiolgy that you simply are unable to realize that I specifically went to the medical model, because I agree with you, that it is the nation's, if not the world's, most inbred, restricted, secretive, and through government processes, overly protected industry in the world.
Yet somehow, despite all these problems, new ideas still rise up and today provide us the longest, and healthiest lifespans of any humans ever on the planet. The oil and gas industries are rank amateurs compared when to the medical industry in controlling things, blocking developments, securing government protection, etc. etc.
And while nearly all medical scientists and doctors work in medicine, I bet less than half of the world's chemical and petrochemical engineers work for oil companies. Instead they work in other industries which use oil as a feedstock, and would be enriched beyond measure if they could find a cheaper, cleaner, more available alternative. Any plastics company for example, and a thousand others.
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You are quite misinformed about the way competition works in the medical industry.
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Again, I have never claimed great knowledge of the medical industry. Only that if you view it like a blockade of knowledge, ships are sneaking in and out of port every single night, and developments proceed on despite it. And CM, what percent of my career do yo think I spent working with the medical industry... since you are so sure i have no idea how it works?
I just really find it hard to believe that I see some of the things I do in medicine on a day in and day out basis yet we can't come up with an alternative fuel source. That doens't quite add up to me.
And THAT CM is the crux of the problem. You believe that, believe it so deeply that there is no room in you to even consider that the odds of your belief becoming true are not complete, or even that they could be as low as 50%, 25?% or even less.
A specific belief, university held by the world science community to be true is called a law. The First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. It took God 3 billion years to convert solar energy into the chemical forms of of oil and coal, which we have used in little more than a century. I hope you are right, and I was wrong. But I don't think so. I believe we have a huge wake up call, right in front of our faces.
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Tom Birdwell
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Matt_Steele
Average Member
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cmsquare
Senior Member
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3160 Posts |
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Posted - 08/10/2010 : 08:49:46 AM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tom B[/i]
I bet less than half of the world's chemical and petrochemical engineers work for oil companies. Instead they work in other industries which use oil as a feedstock, and would be enriched beyond measure if they could find a cheaper, cleaner, more available alternative. Any plastics company for example, and a thousand others.
Thanks for proving my point. I bet you are right. It's simply not a priority and we haven't put our best minds to task about coming up with something. It needs to be a priority.
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tom B[/i]
And THAT CM is the crux of the problem. You believe that, believe it so deeply that there is no room in you to even consider that the odds of your belief becoming true are not complete, or even that they could be as low as 50%, 25?% or even less.
You are telling me something is impossible. As in 0%. I just don't see it that way. You act like I said it would be easy or obvious. It will require brilliant minds and long hard work; but I refuse to believe it's impossible.
Furthermore, you can offer me zero proof that it can't someday happen, unless you can predict the future and how technology will evolve/progress. Are you Marty Mcfly? Can I borrow your Nike's?
Should we just give up on anything that is hard and not a slam dunk? Should we abandon the search for a cure to cancer because it's unlikely and will be hard work? Is that the American way?
If there is a 10% chance we can develop an alternative to oil you don't think we should pursue it because it's not a sure thing?
Whatever Tom; you clearly are the most brilliant engineer ever and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that oil is the only way to make things go.
I do believer deeply that anything is possible. Technology is a crazy thing; I won't count it out but if you want to go right ahead.
Matt don't worry, Rush said the Ocean would just "absorb" it all so that is what will happen. It's just going to get absorbed. |
"I brought it back, not cm"
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blueblood
Senior Member
USA
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Posted - 08/10/2010 : 10:53:37 AM
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As much as the liberal delusional would like to have alternatives, and artificially force feed them on us with the side effect of the ultimate being higher taxes for all that would sustain their perverted ideas that were never mainstream, it ain't going to happen until it is commercially viable in a free society!
We will be bringing on the beginning of hope and change in November,and for the welfare and sustenance of our country, I hope the lessons learned by having these demented politicians will be so enduring (Jimmy Carter) that they will transcend multi generations before the lesson must be repeated, for if it fails to be etched on a majority, and they continue to write checks, and be public leaches on the treasury, we are all short lived. The question will become, are we willing to endure the pain that will right the ship, or will we continue to search for the life preservers? |
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cmsquare
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Posted - 08/10/2010 : 3:28:19 PM
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| If you are looking for further proof that anything can happen Isiah Thomas was just re-hired by the Knicks. |
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Hornet89
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Posted - 08/10/2010 : 5:02:03 PM
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| its like a nerd herd stampede on this topic! |
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v.o.r
Junior Member
361 Posts |
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Posted - 08/12/2010 : 4:11:04 PM
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by blueblood[/i]
[br]As much as the liberal delusional would like to have alternatives, and artificially force feed them on us with the side effect of the ultimate being higher taxes for all that would sustain their perverted ideas that were never mainstream, it ain't going to happen until it is commercially viable in a free society!
We will be bringing on the beginning of hope and change in November,and for the welfare and sustenance of our country, I hope the lessons learned by having these demented politicians will be so enduring (Jimmy Carter) that they will transcend multi generations before the lesson must be repeated, for if it fails to be etched on a majority, and they continue to write checks, and be public leaches on the treasury, we are all short lived. The question will become, are we willing to endure the pain that will right the ship, or will we continue to search for the life preservers?
Yeah... I'm sure the Republicans are going to save all us dumb spending Liberals from ourselves when they take back the house and senate. Guess where we will be in 2 more years??? Not much better off. Its a corrupt system. Doesn't matter which party. They are all put in power by corporations not by a voting majority. You get two choices... both have been fed millions by special interest groups. So does it really matter which one you choose? I really don't think so. |
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Can't Find Oil in the Gulf
