"A co-pastor of the church, Lawrence Bishop, told police that he had asked church security guards to remove the two men because they were disruptive during the sermon."
quote:[i]Originally posted by itbedave[/i] [br]"A co-pastor of the church, Lawrence Bishop, told police that he had asked church security guards to remove the two men because they were disruptive during the sermon."
Church Security????
Never been to a church that needed 'security.'
All you have to do is read some of the posts here on The Voice to understand why many churches want security. Remember the pastor who was stabbed last year while delivering a sermon? The new atheists are fostering a new breed of highly intolerant, very beligerant and sometimes violent dissenters.
In 1999, 6 people were killed on church premises. It hit a peak of 33 in 2009, over a 500% increase in 10 years. And these are just deaths.
yes watch out for the atheists and agnostics, they are busy heading to church to show people the real truth through knives and guns. They are the second most violent sect next to muslims and they should be stopped.
Those look like some cooked stats to me, created by people who push church security. I've never once in my life heard of a violent act occurring at a church. Not saying it never happen, but it is hardly common. If your church has security it's not a church, perhaps you should be asking why it needs it.
As far as referencing posts here on the voice and correlating them to violent acts in real life; that's a joke at best. I've been outspoken against organized religion here but I have never advocated the use of violence for anything at all. I'm not saying you called me out personally but just the same I have never seen anyone else advocate anything close to violence at a church or anywhere else. Real churches don't need security. I've been to many different catholic churches in my life and never saw security.
There is a lot more violence in churches than you might expect. The late term abortion doctor was killed in church. Literally hundreds of churches have been burned in the last five years in this country. The church is not immune to altercations of all types happening within their sanctuary. The creation museum must keep armed guards at all times to manage all the "crazies" who are intolerant of their point of view. Police have free admission to increase this presence.
Just look at the animosity and hatred being spewed on this thread and in cyberspace about SRC. Churches must have security because the world hates the Christian religion, speaking in general terms. Very sad.
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way
The creation museum must keep armed guards at all times to manage all the "crazies" who are intolerant of their point of view.
You mean scientists? Those crazy people who believe in science and evidence based thinking, you need to watch out for them! After all, we all know that triceratops came complete with saddle for riding. What do those "scientists" think they know anyway???
How anyone puts something like that in a "museum" and expects to be taken seriously is beyond me. The only thing the creation museum does is tell people to be skeptical about science while accepting things in the bible without question and without critical thinking. Thanks but no thanks, the church and science do not mix. They probably still think the earth is flat too. If you want to believe that man walked the earth with dinosaur and that this planet is only 6,000 years old that's your right, but it's also my right to think your completely batsh!t crazy. 6000 years old....I can't begin to explain how crazy that notion is.
I think the animosity toward SRC comes from a place where people know that $500,000 could help a lot of people. You could do a lot of good with that money and they instead choose to construct idols to worship and bring them attention. It makes you wonder what they are really out for doens't it? How many homeless people could have meals for how long off that money? Oh wait, who cares about the homeless, they can't tithe.
The creation museum must keep armed guards at all times to manage all the "crazies" who are intolerant of their point of view.
You mean scientists? Those crazy people who believe in science and evidence based thinking, you need to watch out for them! After all, we all know that triceratops came complete with saddle for riding. What do those "scientists" think they know anyway???
How anyone puts something like that in a "museum" and expects to be taken seriously is beyond me. The only thing the creation museum does is tell people to be skeptical about science while accepting things in the bible without question and without critical thinking. Thanks but no thanks, the church and science do not mix. They probably still think the earth is flat too. If you want to believe that man walked the earth with dinosaur and that this planet is only 6,000 years old that's your right, but it's also my right to think your completely batsh!t crazy. 6000 years old....I can't begin to explain how crazy that notion is.
I think the animosity toward SRC comes from a place where people know that $500,000 could help a lot of people. You could do a lot of good with that money and they instead choose to construct idols to worship and bring them attention. It makes you wonder what they are really out for doens't it? How many homeless people could have meals for how long off that money? Oh wait, who cares about the homeless, they can't tithe.
If it is absurd why not just stay away,not support, ignore and it will go away? You are fueling the very fires of hatred that cause these issues because of your intolerance to any idea that is not of yours. That is the way of the American liberal for the most part.
If you want to help someone, do it, and don't criticize others for their ways.
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Read the second part (verse 3,4,and 5) that is completely ignored by everyone who likes to unsheathe their sward and sing it and have no idea what they are saying!
You are who you are, because you choose to be that way
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] Those look like some cooked stats to me, created by people who push church security. I've never once in my life heard of a violent act occurring at a church. Not saying it never happen, but it is hardly common.
You are either willingly or ignorantly misinformed. I DO pay attention to these stories whenever they hit the news and they do happen. Every year. Remember this story from Feb. about 2 brothers who were shot in a SF church by two hooded gunmen who burst throught the doors during the service?
And assault, arson and theft aren't even part of the discussion. Services get disrupted all the time by people who are drunk or high. You probably don't recall all the stories about catholic churches getting assaulted by gay activist protestors? So security isn't just about stopping lethal force.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] If your church has security it's not a church, perhaps you should be asking why it needs it.
Well, I'm sure you think this sounds really profund, but it's not grounded in any rational reasoning or reality, much less any sort of theological foundation. Churches are like any other place where the public can walk in off the streets. People come for all kinds of reasons, and they're not always there to worship God. So you seem to think it implies there's something wrong with the church if they need security, but you're just wrong.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] [br]yes watch out for the atheists and agnostics, they are busy heading to church to show people the real truth through knives and guns. They are the second most violent sect next to muslims and they should be stopped.
As far as referencing posts here on the voice and correlating them to violent acts in real life; that's a joke at best. I've been outspoken against organized religion here but I have never advocated the use of violence for anything at all. I'm not saying you called me out personally but just the same I have never seen anyone else advocate anything close to violence at a church or anywhere else. Real churches don't need security. I've been to many different catholic churches in my life and never saw security.
I didn't call you out, I called out people who have hostile attitudes towards people of faith and how they choose to express their hostility. I don't think you or anyone else here would advocate violence. The point I was trying to make is that all indicators point to a rapid increase in religious intolerance in our culture, especially towards evangelical Christianity. If you want to have a discussion about why I think that, I'd be happy to.
And states this as their mission: Please "like" this page if you think Solid Rock Church should spend their money on helping the huge scores of poor, needy and sick people in this country and around the world instead of rebuilding their huge Jesus statue.
The cost of the statue was $250,000. For that amount you could: Grant 31 wishes through the Make a Wish Foundation, Give 14,705 homeless people a warm, clean bed plus meals for one day, allow a food pantry to hand out 1,250,000 pounds of food, or give 12,500 people fresh water by building 50 freshwater drinking wells.
MainStreetMonroe.com is news of, for and by the people of Monroe, Ohio.
And states this as their mission: Please "like" this page if you think Solid Rock Church should spend their money on helping the huge scores of poor, needy and sick people in this country and around the world instead of rebuilding their huge Jesus statue.
The cost of the statue was $250,000. For that amount you could: Grant 31 wishes through the Make a Wish Foundation, Give 14,705 homeless people a warm, clean bed plus meals for one day, allow a food pantry to hand out 1,250,000 pounds of food, or give 12,500 people fresh water by building 50 freshwater drinking wells.
John, this is a complete waste of time. SRC isn't going to change their minds on the topic, even if 1,000,000 people sign a Facebook petition.
You know, and I'm not talking about you John, but I really wonder how much all these people complaining about all the better ways SRC could spend their money do for the poor? How much money are they giving to charities? And I'm not talking about dropping some change in the Salvation Army kettle during Christmas. It's easy to sit back and criticize a target as big as SRC for how they spend their money, but I hope these people are putting their money where their critical mouth is.
It reminds me of the account of Mary annointing Jesus with the pound of ointment and Judas said "Why wasn't this ointment sold for three hundred pence and given to the poor?" Christ said "Leave her alone. The poor always ye have with you, but me you'll not have always."
The creation museum must keep armed guards at all times to manage all the "crazies" who are intolerant of their point of view.
You mean scientists? Those crazy people who believe in science and evidence based thinking, you need to watch out for them! After all, we all know that triceratops came complete with saddle for riding. What do those "scientists" think they know anyway???
How anyone puts something like that in a "museum" and expects to be taken seriously is beyond me. The only thing the creation museum does is tell people to be skeptical about science while accepting things in the bible without question and without critical thinking. Thanks but no thanks, the church and science do not mix. They probably still think the earth is flat too. If you want to believe that man walked the earth with dinosaur and that this planet is only 6,000 years old that's your right, but it's also my right to think your completely batsh!t crazy. 6000 years old....I can't begin to explain how crazy that notion is.
I think the animosity toward SRC comes from a place where people know that $500,000 could help a lot of people. You could do a lot of good with that money and they instead choose to construct idols to worship and bring them attention. It makes you wonder what they are really out for doens't it? How many homeless people could have meals for how long off that money? Oh wait, who cares about the homeless, they can't tithe.
If it is absurd why not just stay away,not support, ignore and it will go away? You are fueling the very fires of hatred that cause these issues because of your intolerance to any idea that is not of yours. That is the way of the American liberal for the most part.
If you want to help someone, do it, and don't criticize others for their ways.
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Read the second part (verse 3,4,and 5) that is completely ignored by everyone who likes to unsheathe their sward and sing it and have no idea what they are saying!
trust me I do stay away, I would never pay to go into that place. It's just very funny to me when that place gets brought up, I don't know how rational people can take it seriously.
I have no problem that such a place exists, the fact that people go there and believe the non-sense they spew is what scares me.
As for how old the Earth is, it's not really even up for legitimate debate as to whether or not it is 6,000 years old. That is some funny funny stuff. John is right though, lets stay on topic.
perhaps there is an increase of religious intolerance in this country because people are sick of having others people's views shoved down their throat.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] trust me I do stay away, I would never pay to go into that place. It's just very funny to me when that place gets brought up, I don't know how rational people can take it seriously.
I have no problem that such a place exists, the fact that people go there and believe the non-sense they spew is what scares me.
The point is they are forced to employ very strict security measures because of all the "tolerant" lovers of free speech who want to come and cause problems. They are a magnet for wack jobs who hate them because of what they believe and want to come do harm to the property and harass people who want to attend the museum.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] [br]perhaps there is an increase of religious intolerance in this country because people are sick of having others people's views shoved down their throat.
Baloney. Nobody's shoving anything down anyone's throat. If any worldview is being forced down throats, it's from the secular side who control all the gatekeeper institutions in this country.
I'm mostly sick of atheists getting all up in my face about being godless. It's like they are bragging. Big deal... you don't believe in God. If I told you that I believed in God as much as you remind me that you are without God, then you would be all over me.
I respect your right to condemn yourself to eternal damnation, you should respect my right to follow the lead that Jesus Christ set down for all men.
I would suggest that the majority of violent acts against churches are less from atheists than from rabid members of other religions. An interesting study from BANNA Research Summary: These data indicate that, on average:
Americans are generally prejudiced against non-Judeo-Christian religions. Churchgoers are more prejudiced than are Non-Christians. Born-again Christians are more prejudiced than the average churchgoer.
There is a gradual lessening of prejudice in the country. Prejudice against Blacks, Catholics, Jews, and Women (at least as presidential candidates), has been essentially wiped out in recent years. Prejudice against homosexuals has dropped significantly in the past two decades, but remains high. Prejudice against Atheists has dropped slightly, but remains extremely high.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] [br]perhaps there is an increase of religious intolerance in this country because people are sick of having others people's views shoved down their throat.
Baloney. Nobody's shoving anything down anyone's throat. If any worldview is being forced down throats, it's from the secular side who control all the gatekeeper institutions in this country.
yeah you keep telling yourself that, it's a good one.
quote:[i]Originally posted by elgspfkcmon[/i] [br]I would suggest that the majority of violent acts against churches are less from atheists than from rabid members of other religions. An interesting study from BANNA Research Summary: These data indicate that, on average:
Americans are generally prejudiced against non-Judeo-Christian religions. Churchgoers are more prejudiced than are Non-Christians. Born-again Christians are more prejudiced than the average churchgoer.
There is a gradual lessening of prejudice in the country. Prejudice against Blacks, Catholics, Jews, and Women (at least as presidential candidates), has been essentially wiped out in recent years. Prejudice against homosexuals has dropped significantly in the past two decades, but remains high. Prejudice against Atheists has dropped slightly, but remains extremely high.
Note who seem to be the MOST PREJUDICED!!!!
First of all, who is "BANNA Research"? I just googled them and found nothing?
Secondly, "statisics" are meaningless when presented like this. We know nothing about who performed the study and what, if any, agendas they brought with them. Terms like "prejudiced" are tossed around with all kinds of implied meaning. What is their definition of "born again" and how does one qualify as "born again"? Anytime a see statistics that use the term "born again", I'm immediately skeptical. That is a perjorative used anytime the goal is to make "Christians" look bad. What you have just cited carries no weight whatsoever.
Any by the way, everyone is predisposed (or prejudiced) towards their own belief system. So what?
Any by the way, everyone is predisposed (or prejudiced) towards their own belief system. So what?
So what? Really? Your prejudice and proud?
having a belief system and having prejudice against certain kinds of people are two very different things.
surely you can see the sufferance.
I would tend to agree with the data, and they do seem like a pretty legit source. It doesn't look like the kind of group who's goal is to make religion look bad, it just looks like the cold hard facts to me.
About Barna Group Who is the Barna Group? Barna Group is a visionary research and resource company located in Ventura, California. The firm is widely considered to be the leading research organization focused on the intersection of faith and culture. The Barna Group offers a range of customized research, resources and training to serve churches, non-profits, businesses and leaders.
What is the vision of Barna Group? Barna Group provides leadership and unique, strategic information and resources that help facilitate transformation in organizations, communities and individuals.
The company provides primary research; printed resources; leadership development; spiritual training; and church facilitation and enhancement. We seek to use our strengths in partnership with organizations and entrepreneurs to be a catalyst in moral, social, and spiritual transformation. We accomplish these outcomes by providing vision, information, strategy, evaluation and resources.
quote:[i]Originally posted by John Beagle[/i] [br]I'm mostly sick of atheists getting all up in my face about being godless. It's like they are bragging.
and when exactly has an atheist "gotten all up in your face"? Where were you? I would like to know where these people hang out.
I've never been approached by an atheist, nor had my doorbell rung by an atheist, but I can't say the same for church going folk.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] So what? Really? Your prejudice and proud?
Yep. Flying my Rebel flag high today.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] having a belief system and having prejudice against certain kinds of people are two very different things.
surely you can see the sufferance.
What’s sufferance? Look, the bottom line is a statement like “Born-again Christians are more prejudiced than the average churchgoer” has no context and smells of an agenda. I suspect this was a paraphrase of the actual study and it would’ve been more helpful to post a link to the actual study so you could see what methods were used to determine their findings and how they were actually stated. As is, it doesn’t mean much. But for argument sake, let’s say it’s true in the worst sense. OK. It shows that some people who claim to be “Born-again Christians” are flawed. So what? This is no surprise. Here’s a secret: Christians are still the same old flawed, sinful, imperfect people they were before they became “Born-again”. This isn’t a commentary or reflection on Christ or His teachings. It just means many “Born-again Christians” don't measure up to the standard that is Jesus Christ. So I don’t know what comfort you seem to be taking from a study like this.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] I would tend to agree with the data...it just looks like the cold hard facts to me.
Sounds like you might have some "prejudices" yourself.
I just see the whole picture for what it is and data like that confirms what I have been seeing with my own two eyes.
What data? Where's the data? I thought you liked actual citations with links and all? I haven't seen anything "official", only a summary from an anonymous poster on an internet forum. You know, the very thing you railed against in that "PROBLEM WITH BOGUS SOURCES!" thread?
As for what you see with your own two eyes, that works both ways my friend. John and I can attest to the fact that most people on *your* side of the aisle are tolerant as long as we agree with them.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] It doesn't give me pleasure, but it does provide a sense of confirmation and validation to the things and ways I see supposed "Christians" acting.
As I stated before, not all Christians are good ambassadors of the faith. And none of them are perfect. Again...that proves nothing.
What you're doing is generalizing and stereotyping based on *your* personal observations. I'm sure if you ask a member of the KKK what his dealings with Jews and blacks have been like, he's not going to paint a flattering picture. So what are we to learn from that? Just because you've encountered some Christian hypocrites and dummies along the way doesn't prove anything about Christianity. It just proves *some* Christians are hypocrites and dummies. And?
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] You are splitting hairs with the born again thing, go ahead and throw that one out. The parts that get my attention are:
Americans are generally prejudiced against non-Judeo-Christian religions. Churchgoers are more prejudiced than are Non-Christians.
Now why do you think this might be?
The first assertion means nothing. I'd like to see a study done on how prejudiced Saudis (or any Muslim nation) are toward non-Muslims. Or Jews in Israel for that matter. I bet you see similar numbers. It doesn't mean anything.
As for the second, it all depends on their definition of prejudiced. But it's a very suspect conclusion in my opinion.
Unfortunately there are way too many people in America that are more interested in their institution and religion than they are of being Christians. There is change in the air, but this is still the prevailing attitude. I can fully understand folks that are turned off by this - as I am too.
you seem to think I have something against Christianity?
I have equal distaste for all organzied religions, not just the one you choose to practice. They all offer answers with no proof or no evidence. They make people act irrational and have contributed largely to violence and hate over the course of history.
You don't know anything for sure, period. Neither does your choice. I'm here preaching doubt, while all those religions pretend to know it all.
Doubt. You don't know what happens when you die. No matter how many times you go to church you have no more clue than anyone else, and trust me they have NONE. I'd buy into a religion perhaps, if they didn't pretend to have the answers to things they clearly do not.
you seem to think I have something against Christianity?
Oh, I knew you disliked religion in general, but you can't seem to hide your disdain for Christianity.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] They make people act irrational and have contributed largely to violence and hate over the course of history.
This simply is not true. By FAR, atheism has killed many, many, many more people than "religion" ever has. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, the list goes on and on. And I love your selective understanding of the role of religion in history. How about all the great things accomplished in the name of faith?
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] You don't know anything for sure, period. Neither does your choice. I'm here preaching doubt, while all those religions pretend to know it all.
This strikes me as the kind of quote you would be upset by if someone used it on you. I'm sorry but how do *you* know what *I* know, or believe I know?
I've never understood why atheists like yourself get all worked up over religion. Why do you care? If we all go in the ground forever after we die and there is no soul or afterlife, why are you wasting your time preaching your brand of faith to the believers? Don't you have some life to be living? Isn't there some fun you could be having or doing something more worthwhile than debating Christians on an internet forum? It makes no sense whatsoever.
quote:[i]Originally posted by cmsquare[/i] Doubt. You don't know what happens when you die. No matter how many times you go to church you have no more clue than anyone else, and trust me they have NONE. I'd buy into a religion perhaps, if they didn't pretend to have the answers to things they clearly do not.
Well, that's your belief, but it's not mine. I DO have a clue and I'm willing to stake my life on it. And to your last point, I wouldn't want any part of a religion that *couldn't* answer the tough questions. What would be the point?
Just for the record...I am not an atheist. I am a practicing Catholic. I found the information and data on this site interesting and, unfortunately, it re-enforces my own observations that often the most self-averred God-loving people act in very ungodly ways. JMO
Just for the record...I am not an atheist. I am a practicing Catholic. I found the information and data on this site interesting and, unfortunately, it re-enforces my own observations that often the most self-averred God-loving people act in very ungodly ways. JMO
I agree. But hey, perfect people don't need Jesus, do they?
I liked this study, especially the section titled "Atheists and Agnostics: Practicing What They Believe"
Before I make my statment I will first say that I most likely won't respond to any comments. I don't want to argue with anyone. My take on the Christian/NonChristian situation is this...I feel/believe that if you are TRULY a Christian (not "religious") You don't have to tell me. You will exude it in your behavior. I LOVE true Christians. I can't stand religious people. These are the people that feel the need to TELL me they are Christians, yet their behavior is very UnChristianlike.
My dad used to say, 'You wouldn't worry so much about what people thought about you if you knew how seldom they did. Phil McGraw
quote:[i]Originally posted by HBG[/i] [br]Before I make my statment I will first say that I most likely won't respond to any comments. I don't want to argue with anyone. My take on the Christian/NonChristian situation is this...I feel/believe that if you are TRULY a Christian (not "religious") You don't have to tell me. You will exude it in your behavior. I LOVE true Christians. I can't stand religious people. These are the people that feel the need to TELL me they are Christians, yet their behavior is very UnChristianlike.
I, for one, hope they rebuild the statue. I liked it. I liked my hometown having some sort of crazy landmark that I could use as a reference for where I'm from. I care little of the religious part about it or about SRC. I'm not one to tell people or private organizations how to spend their money (so long as you pay your taxes so I can have my healthcare!!!! lol) so I don't really care if they spend it on helping the poor or on a mechanized Jesus whose arms can move (what I'm hoping for). I'm just not sure how/why I should care about SRC's supposed hypocrisy?
Everyone is full of hypocrisy. All religions, religious people and non religious people are, it's part of being human. The lack of flexibility afforded to anyone however, is amazing (you can't change your mind ever in politics for example). It creates such impossibly high standards to where few people could ever be successful. The only ones we deem successful are almost always those we are already psychologically tied to.
quote:[i]Originally posted by HBG[/i] [br]Before I make my statment I will first say that I most likely won't respond to any comments. I don't want to argue with anyone. My take on the Christian/NonChristian situation is this...I feel/believe that if you are TRULY a Christian (not "religious") You don't have to tell me. You will exude it in your behavior. I LOVE true Christians. I can't stand religious people. These are the people that feel the need to TELL me they are Christians, yet their behavior is very UnChristianlike.
Should Jesus be Rebuilt?
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 4:17:54 PM
