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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 02/17/2012 :  11:08:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I have been called by a couple of parents over the past few days concerning Monroe Local Schools and its change in policy concerning the implementation of the Post Secondary Enrollment Opportunity Program [PSEOP] for the coming school year [FY 2012-2013].
    BACKGROUND:
    This dual enrollment program, implemented by the State of Ohio and by Law in the Ohio Revised Code [ORC] is for those students ready for college level work - while still in High School.

    It is that time of year again when the school needs to notify all 8th through 11th grade students about the program and their possible access to it.

    By ORC, the school must notify all students prior to March 1 (,2012) and all students interested must declare their intent by March 30 (, 2012).

My need for information is two-fold:
  • Have the students in 8th through 11th been notified? (I believe some have; not necessarily all.)
  • What information have the students been told about PSEOP?
I have been told that there is a meeting today with students concerning what they will be allowed to take. Allegedly the school will only allow students to take college level work for classes that are directly related to the CORE subjects necessary for High School graduation.

If anyone has any information, I would appreciate further details. Also if there was any handout, I would like a copy of them, as well.

Although my last child will be graduating this year, this was a 'sticky issue' that was raised one week before school started this year with his PSEOP classes. In turn a written agreement between the school and my wife and I was reached one day before the school year began. This agreement has a considerably different understanding of the program and classes authorized by the program.

Thus my interest - I know that we, my wife and I, are not unique in asking the school to fully follow the PSEOP program options.

Having had three children take advantage of PSEOP, having been to many State level Ohio Department of Education courses, and consulting with ODE employees, I have a different understanding of the program and what courses students can take via PSEOP while in High School.

Therefore, my query.

Thank you for any help or assistance you can give concerning this program and our students in the Monroe Local Schools system.

MRI


Geranium
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Posted - 02/17/2012 :  2:20:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I would like that information as well Mike! I have a PSEO student who is a junior and plans on taking classes at Miami again next year. I have another question that maybe you can answer for me. WHY are PSEO classes not weighted as an AP class??? I feel that credit needs to be given where it's due and a college level class should be weighted as an AP class. Do you know why?
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 02/17/2012 :  5:22:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I just received a copy of the Program of Studies - Course Description Booklet - Monroe High School (2012-2013) which has a clause on Page 9
    Post Secondary Options - College Credit for High School Credit
      C. Only those classes that meet a high school requirement at Monroe High School will be paid by the district.
Just in case anyone is interested, I believe this is in direct violation of the law (ORC 3365). Understand, I am NOT an attorney, just a parent who has had three children in the program taking courses far beyond the "CORE graduation requirements of Monroe Local Schools policy"

If anyone would like further information, I will be happy to share my understanding of the law and the correct people to contact concerning this implementation.

MRI

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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 02/19/2012 :  11:58:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

--- ADDED 02/19/2012 ----- ADDED 02/19/2012 ----

Time is essential since the parents and students must submit a letter of commitment by the 30th of March if they intend to participate.

I made a bold statement in my previous post concerning the legality of how the school will be implementing PSEO next year.

Background
I have stayed abreast of this program for the past ten years, continually updating my knowledge about it. Originally for the use of my three children; once I became a member of the school board it became essential for all children of Monroe. Once I left the school board, the school tried to ‘force my child’ out of the program under Option “B” (credit for HS and college) one week before school started.

Having full knowledge of the subject, I disagreed with the Administration, specifically with the Superintendent, and supplied my wife with all the information concerning PSEO and what the school was trying to do to our son, David. Subsequently, she also became outraged when she realized what the school was trying to do. We contacted our attorney, the Ohio Department of Education, and the Attorney General’s office.

With less than one week to fix the problem, actually up to the last day (one day before school started), we (son, wife and I) met with the Superintendent and Lawyer at the administrative offices. The attorney refused to allow us to tape the meeting; although, again the law allows it. We met and the outcome (based on their being contacted by the State of Ohio SW division, Department of Education) was that my son was allowed to take the courses he was scheduled for. In fact the school had to admit that any full time student was authorized to take a total of 35 semester hours a year at college (although the Superintendent stated they would only authorized 30). They had to admit that he could take any subject authorized under the PSEO program in the State of Ohio!

For those of you interested, my wife and I would be willing to sit and discuss our experience concerning PSEO and the school with you. We would welcome doing so with the Administration present to offer their side and will even ask Larry Groom from the SW division of ODE if he could attend to let our parents and students understand the program and what is and isn’t allowed. Of course we have no control in any way to influence the school Administration or ODE representative to attend. But we would be glad to invite them by telephone and email.

END of Background

With the above stated, here are a series of links to the LAW (ORC), Ohio Board of Regents (colleges and universities) ODE information, and other links to help education you on the Post-Secondary Enrollment Program in the State of Ohio.

Ohio Revised Code (ORC) and Ohio Administrative Code Links


Ohio Board of Regents (college/university) links


Ohio Department of Education links


Miscellaneous Links:


As a convenience I have also placed all these links or documents on a blog that you can go to and read or download online.

You can go to the blog page here to have a single place to see and download all documents referenced here.

     Documents concerning Post-Secondary in Ohio

Hope this all helps

Michael R. Irwin
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 02/20/2012 :  2:57:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

UPDATE 20 February 2012

Due to several phone calls asking about PSEO and specifically the laws and methods of Monroe Local Schools, I have compiled links and the documents into PDF files that you can read directly on-line OR click on the links to go to them on NEOLA's on-line site (MLS Bylaws and Administrative Code).

To go directly to the Bylaw, follow this link:

http://www.neola.com/monroelocal-oh/search/policies/po2271.htm

To go directly to the Administrative Code, follow this link:

http://www.neola.com/monroelocal-oh/search/ag/ag2271.htm

To download the forms from NEOLA's website, go to this page and find 2271 series of forms:

http://www.neola.com/monroelocal-oh/search/forms/fm2000.htm

Or you can go directly to the same blog site mentioned above for specific PSEO information by clicking on:

     PSEO information on blog site

Hope it helps

MRI
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 02/22/2012 :  12:00:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

*** UPDATE *** 22 Feb 2012 ***

It is my understanding that the SW Division of ODE will be meeting with Monroe Local School's administration on Friday to discuss the law and the school's implementation of the law concerning Post Secondary Enrollment Options.
    I don't know if it is this Friday (or next).
The point is that some people have talked with ODE / SW Division and they are looking into it. Hopefully it will all be straightened out for the students of Monroe over the coming week or two.

The previous links in this topic concerning PSEO will stay online for at least one year on my blog.

For those interested, you can also see a presentation I did for the Super Saturday program (for gifted students) on the University of Cincinnati campus, concerning
    Gifted Education programs and implementation in the State of Ohio (from personal experiences).

    It includes Credit Flex and Post Secondary; as well as elementary school opportunities for gifted children.

    In addition there is another talk concerning the State of Mathematics education over the past 50 plus years.
If you are interested you can go to a newly created website dedicated to mathematics. Clicking on the below link will take you to the Reports and Downloads section where you can download my presentations or click to see them online:
    Math 4 2-Day website

    I am always interested in feedback concerning this new website. I am open to suggestions for inclusion of additional material or subject matter.

Hope all of this is useful!

MRI
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 02/26/2012 :  7:56:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

*** UPDATE *** 02-26-2012 *** UPDATE ***

The Board of Education meets tomorrow night (Monday, 27 February 2012) at 7:00 pm for their regular board meeting.

Since the PSEOP meeting will be held this Thursday, March 1, 2012 in the auditorium, this would be a good time to come out to the regular meeting and ask the board for clarification about what courses can be taken.

It is also a good time to come out and ask questions about how classes are weighted and why many PSEOP classes are not afforded any weighting.

Remember all AP classes are suppose to be college level work and they are all weighted. Since AP classes are all weighted, why aren't many, if not most PSEOP classes that are college classes?

Understand, my son has taken many college level classes including many 200, 300 and 400 level classes (College Sophomore through Senior classes). All authorized by the State of Ohio Department of Education PSEOP program. He is graduating this year, so his PSEOP participation ends this year. Many of you have children who are just beginning to participate.

So it is your responsibility to get involved and ask the School Board, your representatives about the program and the law.

MRI
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 02/27/2012 :  9:11:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

*** UPDATE *** 27 February 2012 *** UPDATE ***

I just came from the School Board meeting and was disappointed that no one came to speak on the PSEO program.

I did speak - limited to 3 minutes on weighing and Post-Secondary classes. I was reminded before talking that I was limited to 3 minutes (including introduction of who I am.) I asked that my prepared talk (which was about 5 minutes) be entered into the record.

    Geranium had said in an earlier post here, "WHY are PSEO classes not weighted as an AP class??? I feel that credit needs to be given where it's due and a college level class should be weighted as an AP class. Do you know why?"

I researched how Monroe gives weight to PSEO classes and there is no written policy of how to rate the classes other than "contact the Curriculum Director" and that is officially in and Administrative Guideline; NOT the Bylaws or Policy.

I asked the School board to direct the Administration to update and specify specific weighing for Post-Secondary classes as they relate to AP and beyond AP level weighted classes.

The actual talk I presented to the school board can be viewed and downloaded at this link:

Post-Secondary and weighing at Monroe Local Schools


      NOTE: You will need to scroll to the bottom of the page to read my speech.

Hope it helps.

MRI
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 03/02/2012 :  09:42:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Just wondering how the "POST SECONDARY" meeting went last night at the High School?

Since my son will be graduating, I didn't attend.

Hope all went well and everyone is satisfied.

MRI
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PROUDMOM
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Posted - 03/02/2012 :  12:31:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Mike,

I have some questions and will probably be trying to get ahold of you once I talk to my daughter and make sure this is what she wants to do.
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 03/02/2012 :  12:45:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

For all concern, I spoke with the Superintendent this morning about the weight being given (indiscriminately) for PSEO classes.

I was informed that a committee of the Superintendent, High School principal, counselor and curriculum director will be meeting this week to clarify the policy concerning weighing of PSEO classes.

Hopefully, they will arrive at a fair and equatable solution so that our students taking PSEO] classes (actual college classes taken on college campus - thus clearly college level work) will be recognized for the "heavier burden" classes these students take; as authorized by Monroe Local Schools Bylaws 5430 [Class Ranking]
    "[recognition for those students who have a] heavier burden of classes through 'add on' points."

MRI
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 03/17/2012 :  11:16:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

*** UPDATE *** 17 Mar 2012 ***

It has been a few weeks and some action has happened.

In another post I pointed out that I had spoken with the Superintendent a week or so ago. During that conversation, concerning my child's weighing of PSEO classes I confirmed that Mr. Groomes (spelling) from the SW division of ODE had meet with the Administration on Friday 24 February 2012 - before the 1 March 2012 PSEO meeting concerning the PSEO program. I was also told that due to this meeting; allegedly at the PSEO meeting 1 Mar, the attendees were told that the school was further exploring the PSEO opportunities and would let the parents know at a later date about classes offered. (I was not at the meeting and have not confirmed this.)

In addition, my child's PSEO weighing was determined for some classes he is attending. All English, History and Government classes would NOT be weighed. The explanation I was given was that they were equivalent to AP classes being offered at Monroe. If a child wishes to have weight given for those classes, they will only be weighed if the child takes the AP class - not the equivalent (or even more complex) college level course.)

That fight is NOT worth my time and effort since my child is in his last year, NOW last quarter of school. It is for those parents and students who will be taking PSEO classes next year and in the future.

MY PERSON NOTE ON PSEO vs. AP classes in Monroe.
    Note: I made this very comment in a recent email to the Superintendent as well.
I have a serious problem with the implementation of AP level classes at Monroe. My problem is simple - our Monroe students take many AP classes (as do students in other school districts.)

Understand AP level classes are suppose to be college equivalence courses given to H.S. students, in the high school environment. Once they complete the course, each April/May time period, the students take a National AP level competency test. (Paid for by the parents.) It is based on a 1-5 point scale of passage. Public Colleges in the State of Ohio will give full credit for a score of 3 or higher (by ORC). However, private colleges will not normally offer any credit unless the student performs a 4 or 5 and some private schools may offer no credit for any score.

As for our students performance on the National AP tests? They consistently do poorly on the National AP tests - thus receiving NO college credit when they go onto college. In contrast, most of these same students receive "B" or "A" grade in the course from Monroe for the course - yet they have not been prepared for passage of the National AP test and often have not performed at college level when taking the course at Monroe.

This has been a consistent problem since the school broke away from Middletown - upon it's creation.

If our students are not being prepared properly to pass the National AP test to obtain college credit WHY DO WE STILL have AP level courses?

Why do we put the students through the extra workload and 'get their hopes up' ONLY to crush them (by percentage) when they fail to perform well on the National AP test? [When compared to other school districts with a high percentage of passage]

In lieu of AP classes - students can take college level classes directly by participating in the PSEO program.
    BACKGROUND: I raised this issue for the last 2 years I was on the board with our current Superintendent (from the time she came aboard.) It is now more than 4 years since her taking the reins and the Monroe students taking AP courses at our school are still do dismally when taking the National AP test.
Now my quandary, the school will weigh AP classes given at the high school BUT NOT weigh their equivalent college classes taken through PSEO.

So the problem for parents - should I have my child take PSEO and get no weight - BUT do receive BOTH high school credit AND college credit; giving my child a jump start on college? OH, and at NO EXPENSE to the parent or child - including the college books. Or should I, the parent, have my child do extra work taking an AP class, which is suppose to be college level work, pay for the AP test (around $80 + USD per test), receive an "A" for high school; yet run the risk (high percentage probability) of receiving NO COLLEGE credit because they received a 1 or 2 on the 5 point National AP test?

That is the question; isn't it?

As for not weighing equivalent college coursework; because the school offers an AP class for the same subject - that is up the parents to decide. If they feel this is unfair or unbalanced, then they need to group together and demand that the school board correct this travesty for their children.

'Null said

MRI
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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 03/19/2012 :  10:42:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

This is a very important topic - the parents and children who are considering taking Post Secondary Enrollment Options (PSEO) at MUM or another college next year - MUST sign a letter of intent and submit it to Monroe Local Schools by the end of March - March 30, 2012

If you (the parent and child) fail to submit a Letter of Intent, the school can deny the student from participating in the program next year.

If you are concerned with what classes the student can participate it; do NOT let it stop you from submitting a letter of intent. If you are concerned with the impact and ability of your son/daughter from being successful; do NOT let it stop you from submitting a letter of intent.

A Letter of Intent does NOT mean that your child WILL participate; simply that you are considering having your child participate. You are NOT required to participate if you later change your mind.

MRI


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Mike_Irwin
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Posted - 03/30/2012 :  6:30:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

*** UPDATE *** 30 March 2012 *** UPDATE ***

Well today was the last day to submit a letter of intent to participate in PSEO next year.

Hopefully, you encouraged your child to at least submit the intent letter before close of business today.

If you did not and talked your child out of participating, I am sure you had your reasons. I just hope it wasn't because some people in the school said you would have to pay for the classes instead of the State.

This is the last I have to say on this matter. If you have other questions, contact the State of Ohio Department of Education.

Thanks for reading,

MRI
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