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John Beagle
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  09:39:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Monroe City Councilman Todd Hickman
Photo: Councilman Todd Hickman

Regarding: Emergency Resolution No. 20-2011

"How much does it cost to make a gallon of water and how much does it cost to buy it from Butler County?" asked councilman Todd Hickman of city manager, Bill Brock.

Brock responded that it costs approximately $4 per 1000 gallons of water from Butler County. And I don't know how much it costs for us to produce water. I don't have that information but I can get it.

Daniel Arthur, Director of Public Works said we need a study to figure out how much it will cost to modernize the plant for the next 20 years. The plant has not been upgraded since 1994.

The cost of the study was not to exceed $25,000.

Council asked about competing bids for the study. Arthur said the people doing the study were familiar with the Monroe water works which could benefit Monroe.

Regarding: Emergency Resolution No. 20-2011. A Resolution authorizing the City Manager to enter into an agreement by and between the City of Monroe and URS Corporation for professional engineering services to study and evaluate the City's water system and declaring an emergency.

Council tabled the resolution.



"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby

buckeyenut
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  09:47:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I don't know much about water except it comes out of the faucet when I turn it on and it's great for bathing in, washing dishes and humans & animals need it to survive. I also know that Middletown's taste better and cost less than Monroe's plus I don't have the added expensive of a water softener and bags upon bags of salt/conditioner.
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Doc
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  10:04:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by John Beagle[/i]
Brock responded that it costs approximately $4 per 1000 gallons of water from Butler County. And I don't know how much it costs for us to produce water. I don't have that information but I can get it.
That's an inaccurate quote based on my recollection of the dialogue last night.

While not defending Mr. Brock, in my opinion he should have had the information available last night, but what he said was that he didn't have that information available last night but he does have those numbers. He also stated that they fluctuate based on the amount of water being processed - so it's not a black or white answer for a fixed dollar amount for each KGAL.
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John Beagle
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  10:38:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Since we buy the water we need (we can't produce enough water to supply all of Monroe, so we buy from Butler to satisfy the demand), then I would think our water production would be as much as we can make, all the time.

Bill Brock and Dan Arthur did a fine job explaining. And council did the proper think to table this until more information was available.

"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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Doc
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  10:51:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by John Beagle[/i]
[br]I would think our water production would be as much as we can make, all the time.
I think that would fluctuate also based on how much we have to process, yes?
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John Beagle
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  10:54:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Also if equipment is down for repair. Still on average I think Bill will be able to come up with the cost to produce 1000 gallons on average. That's the start figure we need.


"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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Doc
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  11:02:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I haven't seen an email yet from Mr. Brock in response to our question about cost per KGAL but as soon as I see something; I'll pass it along.
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Bob Kelley
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  11:35:27 AM  Show Profile  Send Bob Kelley an AOL message  Send Bob Kelley a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

The other issue is Butler County can't support their own water needs and are buying water from other sources (Hamilton) to supplement their supply. As with any product, if they have to buy it, they also need to at least cover their cost or make something in the process. That increases costs to the end users which as BN says is already high for the "quality". They talked about the warren county wells, is that water the same quality as what we have, is it better or if possible worse? Would the water quality effect the cost of treatment, it will effect the cost of operations and as the water department is an enterprise fund, by law, has to cover its own cost which increases rates. No answers were offered about that. Another question is can we buy better water from the county or Hamilton cheaper than we can produce, and if so will our plant handle all the commercial , industrial use and put residents on a separate supply. Under that scenario do we even need to upgrade our plant? If not we save the 25,000 plus the cost of improvement.

Those are all issues that need to be flushed out before this moves forward.

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John Beagle
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  11:37:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Don't we also buy water from Middletown?

"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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bengalsfan94
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  11:38:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I wish we had Hamilton's water. Lived in Hamilton for 25 years. Hands down the best water I've ever had.
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buckeyenut
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  12:03:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I'm a Hamiltonian, too - fantastic water. As kids we even drank it out of the hose (and I'm not dead yet)!
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slim
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  12:08:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

What is the hardness of our water in Monroe? On the east and west sides of course.
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John Beagle
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  12:18:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

That discussion is here:

http://www.mainstreetmonroe.com/voice/topic.asp?topic_id=21721

Search the site for water hardness, you get these results:
3/23/2011 How Much Does It Cost to Make Monroe Water?
12/20/2010 Water hardness
5/21/2010 A Fun Rehash - Monroe Water Bills
1/1/2010 Water Softener Setting for Monroe
12/8/2008 today's paper
3/6/2008 Hard water Solution -Easy water
7/3/2007 Monroe Water Safety? Consumer Confidence Report
8/29/2006 Boil Water Advisory from City of Monroe
1/3/2005 Drinking water

"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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Doc
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  12:18:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by slim[/i]
[br]What is the hardness of our water in Monroe? On the east and west sides of course.

I think the technical term is "as a board"
It's gotten better over the years but I still find myself knocking of calcium rocks from the shower head occasionally.
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mburs
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  3:30:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Doc,
We have all suspected you have rocks in your head. lol
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Doc
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  3:38:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by mburs[/i]
[br]Doc,
We have all suspected you have rocks in your head. lol


Depends on who these "We" people are, I suppose.
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James Little
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  4:17:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Nice Picture of councilman "no money"
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Bretland
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  5:26:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

better than a picture of councilman "Suncoke or bust"

"There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary, and those that don't."
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webski
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  5:31:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I am glad we get water from Butler County in Monroe Crossings.


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James Little
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  5:32:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Bretland[/i]
[br]better than a picture of councilman "Suncoke or bust"


Just did a search, there is not a voice member with that name. I can double check though
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MFD50
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  6:37:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

There is a valve and a pit containing a water meter to purchase water from the City of Middletown on Yankee next to the TEPPCO plant. However I believe that valve has been turned off and no water is being consumed from Middletown even though Monroe paid for part, (I believe half), of the water tower on Made Industrial Drive.
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Todd
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  9:32:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Hornet86[/i]
[br]Nice Picture of councilman "no money"

"no money"? You can do better than that 86. You don't really think I would post on all these topics do you?

Monroe Open Enrollment Grades 1 - 12
places to buy topsoil
Libyan no-fly zone Update
Failure is Obama's Strategy
If I were to Open a Restaurant Franchise in Monroe
Middletown Elected Officials Comments on SB5
Join the Fight for Ohio Prosperity
Trenton Talk down?
Middletown Marketing City to Cincinnati State
I have Respect for the Japanese People

I do like the screen name though. LOL
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Wolfie
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Posted - 03/23/2011 :  11:56:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Wolfie's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

$2/kgal sounds like a production cost, the other $2/kgal would probably cover distribution costs.

Similar to: http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/suncoke-requests-additional-tax-credit-649101.html

"a reduced water rate for SunCoke, charging $1.36 per thousand gallons of water produced, two-thirds the normal rate."

Granted, the treatment costs would depend on the cost of lime, electricity etc. Does Monroe use lime to partially soften their water?
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James Little
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Posted - 03/24/2011 :  12:11:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Doc[/i]
[br]I know you were...I didn't delete anything. Talk to Mr. Beagle.


Be careful there doc.
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TheDude
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Posted - 03/24/2011 :  11:52:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I didn't know Monroe possessed the equipment necessary to combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce water. This is news to me! :)
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Doc
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Posted - 03/24/2011 :  12:34:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by TheDude[/i]
[br]I didn't know Monroe possessed the equipment necessary to combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce water. This is news to me! :)

It's a byproduct of our teleportation efforts.

I believe the correct phrase would be "producing potable water" but the short form of "producing water" is understood as such.
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TheDude
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Posted - 03/24/2011 :  2:34:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Doc[/i]
[br]
quote:
[i]Originally posted by TheDude[/i]
[br]I didn't know Monroe possessed the equipment necessary to combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce water. This is news to me! :)

It's a byproduct of our teleportation efforts.

I believe the correct phrase would be "producing potable water" but the short form of "producing water" is understood as such.




Although now that I think about it, just burning hydrogen makes water....so I guess the equipment could amount to something as simple as a hydrogen tank and an ignition source
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Doc
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Posted - 03/24/2011 :  2:36:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I did not know that.
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John Beagle
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Posted - 03/29/2011 :  3:43:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Did you get an update yet?

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Doc[/i]
[br]I haven't seen an email yet from Mr. Brock in response to our question about cost per KGAL but as soon as I see something; I'll pass it along.


"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  2:44:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

I have sent several emails since the last council meeting with no response. Is Bill on vacation or am I being ignored down there at city hall?

Doc, have you heard anything on this?

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Doc[/i]
[br]I haven't seen an email yet from Mr. Brock in response to our question about cost per KGAL but as soon as I see something; I'll pass it along.


"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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Doc
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  2:52:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Yes. Sorry. I have.
Let me dig up the information that I received just recently. Be right back.
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Doc
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  3:00:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

OK. Here's what I know.

The cost to produce water in 2010 from our facility was approximately $2.17 with some exclusions taken. There are a number of improvements that would likely be made to the system that would increase this number moving forward.

It should also be stated that for 2010 we operated at approximately 36% overall rated capacity for water production.
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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  3:05:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

You know this?

What is that cost based upon? What plant depreciation figure was used? How was the labor cost figured, who get costed for how much of the water production cost? It sure would be nice to see the worksheets used to calculate this cost.

As a resident, if indeed this is our true cost, then producing as much as we can would be prudent. Why would we produce at such a low rate, 36%? We could have much lower costs with higher production.

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Doc[/i]
[br]OK. Here's what I know.

The cost to produce water in 2010 from our facility was approximately $2.17 with some exclusions taken. There are a number of improvements that would likely be made to the system that would increase this number moving forward.

It should also be stated that for 2010 we operated at approximately 36% overall rated capacity for water production.


"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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Doc
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  3:16:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by John Beagle[/i]
[br]You know this?
I know this is the information that I've been given. I didn't personally run those numbers if that's what you're asking.
quote:
What is that cost based upon?
Real data from 2010
quote:
What plant depreciation figure was used?
I don't have that answer.
quote:
How was the labor cost figured, who get costed for how much of the water production cost?
25% for production and 75% for distribution.
quote:
It sure would be nice to see the worksheets used to calculate this cost.
I do not have that information.
quote:
As a resident, if indeed this is our true cost, then producing as much as we can would be prudent.
As I stated, some exclusions were taken with that number. I do not know the totality of those exclusions.
quote:
Why would we produce at such a low rate, 36%? We could have much lower costs with higher production.
I don't have that information and will not speculate as to why. I will ask these questions at our next council meeting.

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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  3:18:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Thanks Doc, looking forward for a FULL REPORT at the next council meeting.

"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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Doc
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  3:23:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

quote:
[i]Originally posted by John Beagle[/i]
[br]Thanks Doc,
No problem.
quote:
looking forward for a FULL REPORT at the next council meeting.
As am I, Mr. Hickman, and the rest of council.
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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/06/2011 :  3:39:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Maybe I can get a photo of you and Mr. Hickman together. The water boyz. lol

"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/11/2011 :  3:58:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

According to a recently obtained report from city Manager Bill Brock, all of last year these are the costs, expenses and production quantity:

Payroll costs - $137,980.87
Water Production Expenses - $321,509.06
Total Water production (Quanity) - 211,369,000 gallons

If you do the math, it comes out to $2.17 per gallon, just as Doc reported. BUT, what wasn't mentioned in the costs was debt.

Now debt, according to our city manager, is being reviewed to determine the amount attributable to water production rather than distribution. (By debt, I am sure he is talking about our debt on the capital equipment to run the plant).

Points of Discussion:
1. Payroll costs seem low, do only 2 men handle all of Monroe's water production? Are benefits and other labor related expenses included?
2. What is all included in water production expenses? What are the consumables?
3. If we only produced water at 36% of capacity, why? Were there breakdowns? Why buy water for $4 when you can make if for less? What is the historic production level?
4. How much water did we have to buy and at what cost? ($4 is accurate?) If we are are 36% of capacity, what percent of our water demands are we meeting? Can we meet our entire demand if production is increased?

Now on the income side of the equation:
Effective April 1, 2011

When the usage during a billing cycle reflects 20,000 gallons or less the rate for the total usage shall be four dollars and seventy-five cents ($4.75) per 1,000 gallons, or part thereof.

When the usage during a billing cycle reflects 20,001 gallons or more the rate for the total usage shall be five dollars and fifty cents ($5.50) per 1,000 gallons, or part thereof.

This brings the following questions to mind:
1. How many gallons do we sell to those above and below 20,000 gallons per billing cycle?
2. What do we project to sell over the next 5 years?





"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/13/2011 :  11:30:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Here are the answers to my some of my questions:



quote:
[i]Originally posted by John Beagle[/i]
[br]According to a recently obtained report from city Manager Bill Brock, all of last year these are the costs, expenses and production quantity:

Payroll costs - $137,980.87
Water Production Expenses - $321,509.06
Total Water production (Quanity) - 211,369,000 gallons

If you do the math, it comes out to $2.17 per gallon, just as Doc reported. BUT, what wasn't mentioned in the costs was debt.

Now debt, according to our city manager, is being reviewed to determine the amount attributable to water production rather than distribution. (By debt, I am sure he is talking about our debt on the capital equipment to run the plant).

Points of Discussion:
1. Payroll costs seem low, do only 2 men handle all of Monroe's water production? Are benefits and other labor related expenses included?
2. What is all included in water production expenses? What are the consumables?
3. If we only produced water at 36% of capacity, why? Were there breakdowns? Why buy water for $4 when you can make if for less? What is the historic production level?
4. How much water did we have to buy and at what cost? ($4 is accurate?) If we are are 36% of capacity, what percent of our water demands are we meeting? Can we meet our entire demand if production is increased?

Now on the income side of the equation:
Effective April 1, 2011

When the usage during a billing cycle reflects 20,000 gallons or less the rate for the total usage shall be four dollars and seventy-five cents ($4.75) per 1,000 gallons, or part thereof.

When the usage during a billing cycle reflects 20,001 gallons or more the rate for the total usage shall be five dollars and fifty cents ($5.50) per 1,000 gallons, or part thereof.

This brings the following questions to mind:
1. How many gallons do we sell to those above and below 20,000 gallons per billing cycle?
2. What do we project to sell over the next 5 years?







"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/13/2011 :  11:33:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

Here is the text of the video above:

1. Payroll costs seem low, do only 2 men handle all of Monroe's water production? Are benefits and other labor related expenses included?
a. Payroll costs for the production side of expenses included 25% of all personnel costs, less finance department staff costs. Total personnel costs allocated to the Water Fund in 2010 were $689,095. As the calculation was based on an estimate for 2010, we have asked staff to track directly the time they spend in each function.

2. What is all included in water production expenses? What are the consumables?
a. Property/Liability Insurance, Professional Services, Dues/Subscriptions, Lab Services and Testing, Property Maintenance and Repair, Equipment Maintenance and Repair, Printing and Postage, Tools and Minor Equipment, Operating Supplies and Materials, Uniforms, Utilities, and Training.
b. Cosumables include water, electricity, propane, salt, chlorine and fluoride, gravel and sand, filter media, softening catalyst, etc.

3. If we only produced water at 36% of capacity, why? Were there breakdowns? Why buy water for $4 when you can make if for less? What is the historic production level?
a. It would not be wise to run the plant at full capacity all the time. We have an agreement with Butler County that was based on earlier studies of the growth in water usage that have proven higher than predicted. The contract with Butler County has take or pay requirements.
b. Maintenance is required on the plant due to its age would prohibit constant operation at high rates of production.
c. I misspoke at the last Council meeting; we are currently purchasing water from Butler County at $3.09. The cost of water is set by the County Commissioners.
d. The historic production records can be pulled, they are variable based on unique situations at the time.

4. How much water did we have to buy and at what cost? ($4 is accurate?) If we are are 36% of capacity, what percent of our water demands are we meeting? Can we meet our entire demand if production is increased?
a. In 2010 we purchased 284,122,760 at a cost of $3.09 per thousand.
b. 42.6%
c. Not in my opinion.

This brings the following questions to mind:
1. How many gallons do we sell to those above and below 20,000 gallons per billing cycle?
a. This is highly variable based on the time of the year.
2. What do we project to sell over the next 5 years?
a. We have projections based on the 2007 master plan that have proven to be high. The study proposed will assist us in the reevaluation of those figures and give us information to negotiate a new purchase contract with Butler County, which currently expires in 2024.

"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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John Beagle
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Posted - 04/13/2011 :  1:46:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit John Beagle's Homepage  Reply with Quote Report Abuse

The public works committee meeting is tonight at 5:00 behind council chambers. It is open to the public. The water production and costs will be discussed. I plan to attend to get to the bottom of the question

How Much Does It Cost to Make Monroe Water?

We are getting closer folks. Some day we will know. Additionally I will be touring the water facility in the near future. I will share with you some photos and possibly video as we get the tour.

"I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" #BillCosby
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