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T O P I C    R E V I E W
wifostarz Posted - 01/23/2010 : 9:52:32 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/22/earlyshow/main6129624.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.2

A Look into a School Where Teacher Pay is Linked to Student Performance

Better Pay for Better Grades

In this CBS report on Where America Stands, Kelly Wallace takes a look inside the classroom where many teachers are making extra money when their pay is linked to their students' performance

Unidentified teachers and students. (CBS)
(CBS) In the continuing CBS News series, CBS Reports: Where America Stands, in partnership with print partner USA Today, "The Early Show" takes a look inside the classroom, where many teachers are now making extra money when their students do better in school.

CBS News correspondent Kelly Wallace reports that, in CBS News poll two-thirds of people polled said teachers are paid too little.

Full Coverage: CBS Reports: Where America Stands
Read the complete poll

Now, there are programs across the country that link teachers' pay with their students' performance.

Two years ago, Sulphur Springs Elementary School in Tampa received an "F" rating under Florida's school grading system. The school district responded by bringing in a new principal, Christi Buell, who replaced 29 out of 43 teachers -- more than 60 percent of her staff.

Buell recalled for CBS News, "It was a dire situation. We were told the school could potentially be closed down."

Buell managed to bring in fresh blood, in part, by utilizing the district's merit pay program, which pays teachers more when their students pull better grades.

"Performance incentives do make a difference," she said. "It helps to attract the teachers to your school, but it also motivates them to do their best in the classroom every day."

Teachers can earn $5,000 extra if their students are among those who show the most improvement on test scores within the school year.

Donna Calderoni, a fourth grade writing teacher, got a merit pay bonus last year.

"Teacher incentive pay is the carrot," she said. "It is a positive at the end of a year of hard work absolutely."

But does it lead to brighter students? There are critics of merit pay who say there's little research proving it works, it's is hard to administer fairly, and can create ill-will among teachers.

Dennis Van Roekel, president of the National Education Association, said, "If a compensation system creates competition between individual teachers and ability, that is not good for the students."

The criticisms haven't stopped President Obama from embracing the idea.

Mr. Obama has said, "Too many of supporters in my party have resisted the idea of rewarding excellence in teaching with extra pay, even though we know it can make a difference in the classroom."

Mary Ellen Elia, school superintendent of Hillsborough School District, which includes Sulphur Springs Elementary, said, "There's no question that teacher incentive pay is a controversial thing."

Elia's district has received a $100 million grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, in part to study and fine-tune the effectiveness of the pay for performance approach.

Elia said, "We're committed to make sure we get the program right, that it's fair, that it's equitable."

In fact, it appears to have worked at Sulphur Springs. The "F" the school got two years ago is gone. It became a "B"-rated school this year.

"Ultimately, what we aiming for is student success," Buell said, "and if the money helps us get there then it's a great motivator."

"Early Show" co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez pointed to the criticism that merit pay programs can pit teachers against each other -- that, instead of collaborating for all students, they will focus only on their classroom.

Wallace said supporters have said they can see that argument and are now supporting programs that award an entire school's faculty for improved performance, school-wide, rather than just individual teachers.

40   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Tom B Posted - 01/28/2010 : 10:39:40 PM
Note: The following is MY opinion only, and certainy does not reflect the views or action of Monroe Local Schools.

quote:
[i]Originally posted by lak713[/i]
[br]Merit pay for teacher performance is problematic because there is NO fair way to implement it across grade levels, content areas, special ed areas, etc.


I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but I just don't buy that. Fairness? How is today's system fair, where everyone receives the same salary reward, regardless of how they perform? How is it fair to lay off some of your best talent, while keeping lower performing people simply because they are higher on the seniority system? How is that best for our kids? This is just my opinion, but teachers are either professional employees or they are not. Professional employees should be measured, evaluated, and rewarded based upon their performance.

It is management's job to know which employees are true drivers of improvement, and which are just along for the ride. I suspect our principals know this today. And if not, they most certainly should. In the commercial world, not only do managers make such performance driven salary decisions, but they also must determine which exempt employees to keep or lay off in a business downturn. It certainly is not fun for the manager who must make these decisions, but in my mind, it is simply part of the job.
quote:

The teachers who are in classrooms making a difference will do it with or without merit pay....it's simply not their motivator. If more money was actually offered for higher 'test' scores, there better be some value added data being considered and not just pass/fail percentages.


While I agree that money is not the primary driver of performance for our best employees, it certainly has some impact, and besides, it is only fair to reward our best performers over the mediocre ones. As you state, the best teachers will continue to do their best regardless, but how about the rest? Watching others pass you by in salary, based on their performance, is certainly a motivator.

I agree that it could be difficult to match individual teachers to student performance. But it is certainly easy to tie a group of employees to a group performance objective. For example, we have performance problems in the junior high. It would be easy to tie all of the Junior High staff's salary to the measured performance problems of the school. The same is true of our other schools.
quote:

Blame unions if you'd like...what I can say is from personal experience. I was a union rep for five years in CPS and they broke ground across the nation by creating and implementing a new peer evaluation system. More teachers were terminated, mentored, or non-renewed in the first several years than previously by principal evaluations alone.


Frankly I have always wondered just what the union does for teachers or any government employees for that matter. Federal and state laws pretty much define the conditions under which an employee can be dismissed. It is great protection, leaving me to wonder just what the union provides them.

It may sound harsh I know, but there is a real benefit in tying salary and continued employment to performance. It would require a huge paradigm shift. School administrators today have no idea how to work in such an environment, but that does not mean they can't learn its advantages and how to make it work. The business world has managed to do so.

lak713 Posted - 01/28/2010 : 8:11:17 PM
Good point, however, the peer evaluators worked across the district and didn't have teachers on their caseload that they knew...just to avoid that implication. It is far more prevalent for administrators to score a teacher too high for fear of confrontation in their own building.

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Idefix[/i]
[br]
quote:
what I can say is from personal experience. I was a union rep for five years in CPS and they broke ground across the nation by creating and implementing a new peer evaluation system. More teachers were terminated, mentored, or non-renewed in the first several years than previously by principal evaluations alone.



Isn't there a risk some would give their fellow co-workers better evaluations than they might deserve, just because the fact of being co-workers (and feel bad if they give a less than good evaluation, even if it might be motivated...)

Idefix Posted - 01/28/2010 : 08:53:53 AM
quote:
what I can say is from personal experience. I was a union rep for five years in CPS and they broke ground across the nation by creating and implementing a new peer evaluation system. More teachers were terminated, mentored, or non-renewed in the first several years than previously by principal evaluations alone.



Isn't there a risk some would give their fellow co-workers better evaluations than they might deserve, just because the fact of being co-workers (and feel bad if they give a less than good evaluation, even if it might be motivated...)
lak713 Posted - 01/27/2010 : 11:06:36 PM
Merit pay for teacher performance is problematic because there is NO fair way to implement it across grade levels, content areas, special ed areas, etc. The teachers who are in classrooms making a difference will do it with or without merit pay....it's simply not their motivator. If more money was actually offered for higher 'test' scores, there better be some value added data being considered and not just pass/fail percentages.

Blame unions if you'd like...what I can say is from personal experience. I was a union rep for five years in CPS and they broke ground across the nation by creating and implementing a new peer evaluation system. More teachers were terminated, mentored, or non-renewed in the first several years than previously by principal evaluations alone.
logicgate Posted - 01/27/2010 : 3:48:01 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Bretland[/i]
[br]logic,

Standing in front of a classroom (and other excuses that were mentioned) has nothing to do with managing staff to get results. A teacher or a programmer can be rated based on a set of specific criterion. The union may need to consider change (change is good...:) )if a process is to work effectively. Unions also have been broken before - maybe now would be a good time to take this union to task (if they're not open to ideas other than their own).

You say that teachers have little say or influence over their environment. I don't make the rules where I work, but I constantly work the procedures and rules that do exist to make as big an impact as I can. I certainly don't complain that I can't make a difference or change things.
If teachers actually have no say is the processes at all, you have identified a major problem right there. Don't teachers elect union representatives and have a seat at the policy table? If not, they need to evaluate their position at the "bottom of the food chain".

It's difficult to visualize a process when you've never participated in it. I believe that a good manager that had a lot of private sector experience and little or no public sector or education sector experience could make a huge difference in the school system. The problem is that they would hit brick walls, be talked down to and demonized so much that they would probably give up.

Thanks for the feedback. It makes for good conversation about the topic.



To be more specific, teachers can shut the door and do what they do best. but.... policy decisions from the Federal, state and local level often are not in step with those efforts. So yes, they can have an influence day by day, minute by minute. However, regarding policy and the future of education, progress..... not too much....... Regarding Unions, my wife's teacher's union (not Monroe) doesn't do squat (aside from dues :-)))) Her contract has been broken and violated countless times. I shake my head at the stuff the district does and nothing is said. Good thing she likes kids.

Teachers are evaluated and rated. That is how their license is reviewed. Contrary to urban myth, it is not automatic and a slam dunk. The issue that is pushed aside regarding merit pay is the objectivity and how it would be skewed by the classroom demographics within a school, county, state etc... How does one come up with >meaningful< criteria that works in Appalachia, Indian Hills and Monroe? I think it should be nationally based as the student will leave school and work globally... so......

If the focus is specifically on teachers (which I think already gets a disproportionate amount of attention) then put the focus on how teachers are made starting at the freshman year of college. I do this type of work in industry. We can change with the moment as needs change. College Education for all fields is a big slow thing to change. Add to that the complexity of licensing, the paranoia of education failing, the "more is better" solution to making teachers, (and teaching) Essentially, the process for making teachers is not that different now (aside from more specific licensing requirements, more years required to get a degree, new names for old theories)than it was 25 years ago.

Look at the average age of a college education professor. A lot of these problems go right back to the same source: Regulations, rules and laws. You could have a MBA from Harvard, 20 years on Wall Street and you could not get a 1st year teaching job in a school for $28K. You would not be considered, "Highly Qualified" under NCLB.

I don't disagree with you in concept. But just like the OGT was designed to eval. student and district performance... Now it is criteria for home sales, city marketing and....?

and once it is in place good/bad it is in place for a long time
Idefix Posted - 01/27/2010 : 2:58:17 PM
quote:
It does require standardized testing but each state has its own "tests".

So for comparison from state to state... means what? Probably not much value. However, teachers have a lot of pressure on them to make sure their students get good grades on the state test. Again, one more thing to side track teaching and learning in an effort to appease an outside entity.


From what I understand, the "Elementary and Secondary Education Act" from 1965 required standardized testing in public schools as well. All the "No child Left Behind" act did regarding this was to tie federal funding more to test results than before? I thought there were national tests, but I was wrong - states have their own tests. Which can be both good or bad, depending on how you choose to look at it. Maybe for a state-to-state comparison national tests would be needed. But to administer that would really take some effort I guess.
Bretland Posted - 01/27/2010 : 09:53:44 AM
logic,

Standing in front of a classroom (and other excuses that were mentioned) has nothing to do with managing staff to get results. A teacher or a programmer can be rated based on a set of specific criterion. The union may need to consider change (change is good...:) )if a process is to work effectively. Unions also have been broken before - maybe now would be a good time to take this union to task (if they're not open to ideas other than their own).

You say that teachers have little say or influence over their environment. I don't make the rules where I work, but I constantly work the procedures and rules that do exist to make as big an impact as I can. I certainly don't complain that I can't make a difference or change things.
If teachers actually have no say is the processes at all, you have identified a major problem right there. Don't teachers elect union representatives and have a seat at the policy table? If not, they need to evaluate their position at the "bottom of the food chain".

It's difficult to visualize a process when you've never participated in it. I believe that a good manager that had a lot of private sector experience and little or no public sector or education sector experience could make a huge difference in the school system. The problem is that they would hit brick walls, be talked down to and demonized so much that they would probably give up.

Thanks for the feedback. It makes for good conversation about the topic.
logicgate Posted - 01/26/2010 : 9:02:22 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by bobpreston[/i]
[br]
quote:
[i]Originally posted by logicgate[/i]

What national exam? Only if they want to go to college and some colleges are getting away from the ACT & SAT. The OGT standard is moderate at best. By the time some students have struggled to get to H.S., the parents just want them with a diploma in their hand. No more, no less



Doesnt no child left behind require national test at certain grade levels?



I'll probably be wrong on the specific wording, but.... It does require standardized testing but each state has its own "tests".

So for comparison from state to state... means what? Probably not much value. However, teachers have a lot of pressure on them to make sure their students get good grades on the state test. Again, one more thing to side track teaching and learning in an effort to appease an outside entity.

In the future Ohio will be using the SAT or ACT? (can't remember which) which will give a standard of measure of student achievement which I think makes more sense as you have more data to compare.
cmsquare Posted - 01/26/2010 : 8:30:17 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by bobpreston[/i]

no child left behind



Talk about a program that set things behind instead of toward the future.
bobpreston Posted - 01/26/2010 : 8:25:54 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by logicgate[/i]

What national exam? Only if they want to go to college and some colleges are getting away from the ACT & SAT. The OGT standard is moderate at best. By the time some students have struggled to get to H.S., the parents just want them with a diploma in their hand. No more, no less



Doesnt no child left behind require national test at certain grade levels?
logicgate Posted - 01/26/2010 : 4:00:45 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Bretland[/i]
[br]We get mandates in the public sector (where I am now) and we get bureaucratic decisions made by people that have risen due to the Peter Principle. You just handle it........ Excuses are a convenient way of avoiding responsibility.

You don't want to compare schools to the Private sector because you don't want change.

The system could be changed. It just takes a strong School Board and parents willing to demand better performance. I've said before that our overall rating should be EXCELLENT and it's not. Why not??? Because the Administration can't break through the barriers put forth by the teachers and union that supports them.

Let's just pass another levy and give them more funds to work with. They have no incentive to improve their rating and the football team is doing well. It seems like an ongoing cycle..
My opinion.



This is based on how many hours you've stood in front of a classroom? Worked in or with the teacher's union? I don't see the union/school rating cause/effect relationship explained here?

What I do see is a a broad sweeping generalization that overlooks everything from the State Dept. of Ed, to shrinking funding, to policy stability, NCLB, IEPs, 504s, more licensing requirements for existing teachers. (for starts)

If teachers had the say or influence that you think they do, I think you would be very happy with the results. Look at the food chain. They're pretty much right at the bottom of any potential decision making about policy... yet they are the problem?
logicgate Posted - 01/26/2010 : 3:50:58 PM
[/quote]

Their kids would still have to pass national tests and exams, right? There will be other kids and parents that do want schools with higher standards, so let the ones wanting the "easiest" get them, if that is what they want. I don't think schools with higher standards will be empty at all, there are still enough of us out there valuing a good education to fill them.
[/quote]

What national exam? Only if they want to go to college and some colleges are getting away from the ACT & SAT. The OGT standard is moderate at best. By the time some students have struggled to get to H.S., the parents just want them with a diploma in their hand. No more, no less
Idefix Posted - 01/26/2010 : 12:19:05 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by logicgate[/i]
[br]Regarding the voucher system, there are many students/parents who would simply seek out the school that is the "easiest". If your school was too tough, or had tight standards, you might find a fairly empty school.

It would quickly be about marketing and pleasing the customer, not about teaching to higher standards.



Their kids would still have to pass national tests and exams, right? There will be other kids and parents that do want schools with higher standards, so let the ones wanting the "easiest" get them, if that is what they want. I don't think schools with higher standards will be empty at all, there are still enough of us out there valuing a good education to fill them.
buck35 Posted - 01/26/2010 : 10:14:23 AM
They are instead rewarded for tenure and degrees.
In the private business world how many companies reward their employees for years of experience & for those who get degrees or training to move up the ladder?
wifostarz Posted - 01/26/2010 : 09:42:40 AM
Both the elementary school and the high school are rated excellent.

lrisner: I agree. I work in a Fortune 500 IT company and when we go through ratings and reviews every year, corporate mandates how many of each rating each manager must have. It has absolutely nothing to do with performance (our reviews do, but that is not what raises are based on).

In the workforce, most places do not have the same conditions as in school. I do not see how the two can be compared. Seems everyone is just referring to a teachers ability to teach the average child who wants to be there and cares about their grades. What about the teachers who are weighted with advanced students? What about the teachers who have a high number of learning disabled students? And then there are those students who just don't care about their grades. No matter what, you will always have parents who do not care either.
Bretland Posted - 01/26/2010 : 09:31:46 AM
We get mandates in the public sector (where I am now) and we get bureaucratic decisions made by people that have risen due to the Peter Principle. You just handle it........ Excuses are a convenient way of avoiding responsibility.

You don't want to compare schools to the Private sector because you don't want change.

The system could be changed. It just takes a strong School Board and parents willing to demand better performance. I've said before that our overall rating should be EXCELLENT and it's not. Why not??? Because the Administration can't break through the barriers put forth by the teachers and union that supports them.

Let's just pass another levy and give them more funds to work with. They have no incentive to improve their rating and the football team is doing well. It seems like an ongoing cycle..
My opinion.
lrisner Posted - 01/26/2010 : 08:49:39 AM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Bretland[/i]
[br]Pay for performance is a coommon practice in the non-union business world.

I manaage computer programmers and network engineers. They are measured against detailed performance plans that are developed at the beginning of each year. Those that meet or exceed their individual goals get rewarded accordingly. Those that do not meet their goals get a reduced reward.

It's a pretty straight forward process. Teachers unions have historically rejected this process. They are instead rewarded for tenure and degrees.

My opinion.




What if you got paid based on how the People you managed did AND you had to incorporate Bureaucratic Mandates laid down by Idiots AND also you had to deal with your Employees Parents and explain to them all the time why you were working their Offspring so hard.

In all honesty, comparing the Schools to Private Business for terms of Pay, is ridiculous. It is a "feel good" Idea, but really has chance of working.
Bartleby Posted - 01/26/2010 : 05:26:53 AM
The union system has worked well for GM.
logicgate Posted - 01/25/2010 : 3:20:48 PM
Regarding the voucher system, there are many students/parents who would simply seek out the school that is the "easiest". If your school was too tough, or had tight standards, you might find a fairly empty school.

It would quickly be about marketing and pleasing the customer, not about teaching to higher standards.
wifostarz Posted - 01/25/2010 : 09:49:37 AM
There are times that the special ed. classes need items and the school will not give them the money. Unless the parents of these children will buy the items or supply the money, they do without.... Unfortunately, this also means that whatever lesson was going to be taught does not happen either. This does not happen often, but it does happen.

quote:
[i]Originally posted by bobpreston[/i]
[br]
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Lupa[/i]
[br]What if teachers lack resources because the district cannot provided?


Tell the school to dig into some of that money they dont really need right now! You know like the million that popped out of nowhere last month. How much school supplies could you get for a million dollars. Sounds like a bunch of mismanagement to me.

Another good reason all kids should be on the voucher system and make schools compete. If they cant get kids then they go out of business.

cmsquare Posted - 01/25/2010 : 09:27:45 AM
No they do not.

I'd rather see a pay-scale based upon number of books read anyway, it is much more valuable.

bobpreston Posted - 01/24/2010 : 11:11:59 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Lupa[/i]
[br]What if teachers lack resources because the district cannot provided?


Tell the school to dig into some of that money they dont really need right now! You know like the million that popped out of nowhere last month. How much school supplies could you get for a million dollars. Sounds like a bunch of mismanagement to me.

Another good reason all kids should be on the voucher system and make schools compete. If they cant get kids then they go out of business.
logicgate Posted - 01/24/2010 : 11:08:37 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Bretland[/i]
[br]Pay for performance is a coommon practice in the non-union business world.

I manaage computer programmers and network engineers. They are measured against detailed performance plans that are developed at the beginning of each year. Those that meet or exceed their individual goals get rewarded accordingly. Those that do not meet their goals get a reduced reward.

It's a pretty straight forward process. Teachers unions have historically rejected this process. They are instead rewarded for tenure and degrees.

My opinion.



You are absolutely correct... However, I have found in the business world you are far more likely to be able to identify good solid cause/effect fairly objective measurable goals. In fairness to union environments. In non-union environments I found absolutely silly goals and measures assigned to evals. along with criteria to not rate people too high or too low regardless of how well they did. (if they needed to fire them later) even if they were outstanding employees.

Which opens up a whole other Pandora's box. Who does the ascertainment of who reached the objective? In a school it wouldn't take much for an admin. to put a teacher in a no win situation. Toughest students with the highest absentee rate. How do you assess students who are already achieving at a high level? Districts already suffer a bit with this as you cannot get large percentages of improvement with high achieving students.

So many variables outside of the teachers range of influence.
bobpreston Posted - 01/24/2010 : 11:08:03 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by MoneyBags[/i]
[br]Bob's method of paying teachers would be a boon to the struggling inner city schools :)


Yeah because its working so well now!!!!
Bretland Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:43:51 PM
Pay for performance is a coommon practice in the non-union business world.

I manaage computer programmers and network engineers. They are measured against detailed performance plans that are developed at the beginning of each year. Those that meet or exceed their individual goals get rewarded accordingly. Those that do not meet their goals get a reduced reward.

It's a pretty straight forward process. Teachers unions have historically rejected this process. They are instead rewarded for tenure and degrees.

My opinion.
MoneyBags Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:43:20 PM
Bob's method of paying teachers would be a boon to the struggling inner city schools :)
Lupa Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:20:01 PM
What if teachers lack resources because the district cannot provided?
bobpreston Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:16:15 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by logicgate[/i]

I've never been rewarded for work. It's always been an exchange of money for services rendered.



I wonder if you didnt perform to your companies satisfaction, would they fire you?
Bet if you were standing in the unemployment line, your pay would feel like a reward. BTW I dont disagree with you (compensation for exchange of service) and I think teachers shouldnt have to be bribed to do their job in which they are hired for.

But if we start bribing them then they should also be punished for lack of standards.

But I stated this way back and all the whining was because people only read the part they didnt like.
logicgate Posted - 01/24/2010 : 10:01:53 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by bobpreston[/i]
[br]LMFAO, of course your pay is a reward. Its a reward for doing your JOB. We have positive rewards, a paycheck. Negative rewards, slavery. So yes getting a very nice pay and benefit package is a reward. If its so bad teaching step out into the real world and give it a go.

Its funny to watch people bend and twist words to say things they dont, guess the reading comprehension of this forum is pretty low! If you want to give teachers extra money for excelling then you should also punish those that dont live up to what they were hired for. If a teacher passes a kid in 10th grade and he cant read see spot run, then yes that teacher and all the previous teachers should be punished and/or fired. Like wise if its the administration pushing them through then the teachers should be getting that information out to the community and the administration should be removed.

Dont even get me started on the parents then we have to buy rope and find tall trees. But we are paying a lot of money for the schools oversight of kids education and if its not living up to standards people have to go.
But you have the teachers union protecting worthless teachers(not all) and no one wishes to fix a broken system.



That's right Bob, the parents can sign off on the kids, toss them in public school and the teachers are supposed to make them do what their parents can't/won't or be punished, or fired.

I've never been rewarded for work. It's always been an exchange of money for services rendered.

I reward me dog for good behavior. Maybe that is what you're wanting to say? Reward the dogs?
bobpreston Posted - 01/24/2010 : 9:46:24 PM
LMFAO, of course your pay is a reward. Its a reward for doing your JOB. We have positive rewards, a paycheck. Negative rewards, slavery. So yes getting a very nice pay and benefit package is a reward. If its so bad teaching step out into the real world and give it a go.

Its funny to watch people bend and twist words to say things they dont, guess the reading comprehension of this forum is pretty low! If you want to give teachers extra money for excelling then you should also punish those that dont live up to what they were hired for. If a teacher passes a kid in 10th grade and he cant read see spot run, then yes that teacher and all the previous teachers should be punished and/or fired. Like wise if its the administration pushing them through then the teachers should be getting that information out to the community and the administration should be removed.

Dont even get me started on the parents then we have to buy rope and find tall trees. But we are paying a lot of money for the schools oversight of kids education and if its not living up to standards people have to go.
But you have the teachers union protecting worthless teachers(not all) and no one wishes to fix a broken system.
logicgate Posted - 01/24/2010 : 8:50:16 PM
"...can punish teachers for not doing their job if you are rewarding them for doing their job."

Teacher's pay is their "reward"? IS that what they call it Bob? Reward? Is that what you said to your employer when you were paid? Gee boss, thanks for my reward! Sort of like dog treats I guess.

It is compensation for an exchange of services rendered. The compensation is traditionally commensurate with ability, credentials, requirements, time required. (to name a few)

As for incentive based pay you have to solve this problem if...IF... you want it to have a chance of producing a positive (not punitive) result. The "incentive" needs to have a >direct< correlation to the end result. A direct Cause/effect. Salesmen, work smarter, harder and sell more, then they make more. If it doesn't it will not motivate employees. At best it will do nothing it they cannot see the direct cause/effect. Worst case.. it will cause them to give up as they begin to lose money for something they cannot change.

Teachers could do incredible things and still a certain percentage of the student(s) will not care if they pass,fail, drop out, skip school, do their homework etc... You doubt this I'll put you in touch with my friend in Cinti Public.

Save all of your "To Sir with Love" romantic notions of the magic teacher solving the problems of all of their students. The profession is far more complicated and muddied than that.

I'm not against teacher pay, but it has to be properly designed, not just a "Buzz term" thrown around to make everyone feel better.
logicgate Posted - 01/24/2010 : 8:26:08 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by bobpreston[/i]
[br]
quote:
[i]Originally posted by logicgate[/i]

-GPA drops below 2.0 the child and the parents will attend homework and time management classes at their expense.



Along with the teacher that will NOT get paid for this time, it must be everyones fault.

Wolfgang z you sure can punish teachers for not doing their job if you are rewarding them for doing their job. They get paid a salary to educate children and if the kids are making it through high school and cant read then the teachers failed. Its their job to not allow kids to continue on if they cant pass their current grade.

Blame the stupidity on whomever you wish but passing kids to keep your numbers up is a failure and it falls on the teachers lap.



Of course BP, you're assuming the teachers have all of the say on this. There is a system in place that establishes criteria. If the student can muster through that on that given day.... but the teacher doesn't think they are up to standard and wants to fail them.... Well hold onto your hat little Nellie when a parent hears about that.

Odd, there are parents, admins, BOE, state leaders, etc... all involved in the process, but it is only the teacher you want to see punished? Then they better come up with pay that reflects complete and sole responsibility
wifostarz Posted - 01/24/2010 : 8:05:09 PM
I think, as Wolfgang pointed out, that there are just too many variables involved to rate teachers fairly.

quote:
[i]Originally posted by bobpreston[/i]
[br]
quote:
[i]Originally posted by logicgate[/i]

-GPA drops below 2.0 the child and the parents will attend homework and time management classes at their expense.



Along with the teacher that will NOT get paid for this time, it must be everyones fault.

Wolfgang z you sure can punish teachers for not doing their job if you are rewarding them for doing their job. They get paid a salary to educate children and if the kids are making it through high school and cant read then the teachers failed. Its their job to not allow kids to continue on if they cant pass their current grade.

Blame the stupidity on whomever you wish but passing kids to keep your numbers up is a failure and it falls on the teachers lap.

wolfgang z Posted - 01/24/2010 : 8:02:50 PM
Mr. P. you do not know what you are talking about unless you have been a teacher for the past 20 years or so.
bobpreston Posted - 01/24/2010 : 6:36:14 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by logicgate[/i]

-GPA drops below 2.0 the child and the parents will attend homework and time management classes at their expense.



Along with the teacher that will NOT get paid for this time, it must be everyones fault.

Wolfgang z you sure can punish teachers for not doing their job if you are rewarding them for doing their job. They get paid a salary to educate children and if the kids are making it through high school and cant read then the teachers failed. Its their job to not allow kids to continue on if they cant pass their current grade.

Blame the stupidity on whomever you wish but passing kids to keep your numbers up is a failure and it falls on the teachers lap.
logicgate Posted - 01/24/2010 : 5:43:24 PM
quote:
[i]Originally posted by bobpreston[/i]
[br]I think its fine but those who who have students with poor performance should get a $5k reduction in pay.


If you do this be sure to do this:

- every time Johnny or Susie forgets, or choses not to do, their homework, fine the parents $10
-Unexcused absences $50
-sleeping in class $25 per offense
-Parent doesn't come to conferences or meetings $25ea time
-GPA drops below 2.0 the child and the parents will attend homework and time management classes at their expense.

If you're going to hold teachers >financially< accountable, you need to share the love with the people who should be spearheading their learning... their parents
Bartleby Posted - 01/24/2010 : 11:13:11 AM
Pay for performance is a wonderful concept but it is too hard to measure. What is performance; grade. Well then the teacher can just give the kids better grades and get paid more. There needs to be an independent metric, which is what No Child Left Behind was supposed to and is doing. While it is not perfect, it is known that better ranked schools can draw the better teachers from colleges. Now there is a problem with how, if you are the lowest ranked school, do you craw out of that hole? Not a perfect system but better then the old days of repeated raises with no basis.

The book Freakanomics devotes an entire chapter on these concepts. The book is a little liberal so it does read like a Curious George book.
wolfgang z Posted - 01/24/2010 : 09:39:21 AM
BP you cannot fault or penalize a teacher for all performance issues of the students. As WS says, children learn at different rates, some grasp the intangible aspects of education, while others must have intensive hands on and the attentions of the teacher. There are many parents out there that think their children need to be in school as soon as possible. Late birthday children almost always seem to be playing catch up with the early birthday children. A truly dedicated teacher recognizes the deficiencies with these children and puts efforts towards them when necessary. Then there are the truly gifted children the are like sponges and absorb everything that is given them. Pay should not be based on classroom performance when the variables are never the same for each and everry teacher. In Monroe, teachers follow the same curriculum in the classroom. It takes more than just a classroom to teach children. Home participation of the parents is critical to the learning and education process. If the parents aren't participating, you cannot penalize the teacher. Pay for performance in this arena never. To many variables. Obama and everyone else that wants to push this forward needs to relook at the whole situation.
wifostarz Posted - 01/23/2010 : 11:51:26 PM
I want to know how the teachers with a higher number of special ed. students would be evaluated. Since not all children learn at the same rate and some have learning disabilities, how can the teachers possibly be evaluated fairly?
Lupa Posted - 01/23/2010 : 11:31:18 PM
I think this would be hard to administer. You have a sixth grade student who reads on a first grade level and is now reading on a second grade level by the end of the year but did poorly on standardized tests. Is this considered an improvement in the student's performance?


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